Greg Spouts Off About P-38 Drop Tanks (4 Viewers)

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Boilerplate or orthodox tend to form around the available evidence, deciding this is wrong requires evidence to the contrary.
Okay, here's the problem. Now, my background is journalism. I spent 35 years in news, shooting it, writing it, editing, producing and teaching it. This is why I have a problem with this and regardless of what people think of journalists, I make no apologies for it. I have yet to see anything that presents Arnold's side of the story and very little that presents anyone else's. I've seen some pretty outlandish comments from some authors, such as this from Vlaun:

"To COA members, whose organization's survival was by then all but assured for the remainder of the war, securing support for their research was a matter of pride. An opportunity [...] to attack grinding-wheel plants would also reinforce the agenda [...] to seek out catastrophic raids; if successful, quick victory would be attributed to the COA's collective genius along with [General] Arnold's omniscient view from Washington. The committee found the expert they sought, and he provided the opinion they expected. Unfortunately, as with ball bearings, the analysts' push to attack grinding wheels would perpetuate the tendency in Washington to overestimate the bomber's ability to attack such targets ant to underestimate the Germans' ability to cope." ("Selling Schweinfurt: Targeting Assessment, and Marketing in the Air Campaign Against Germany", Maxwell AFB, 2017, p.473)

Now, to be fair, this was quoted by someone else for whom I usually have pretty high regard but with no clear attempt to be even remotely even handed, I simply refuse to accept it. Certainly not at face value. This is why I'm asking these questions: not because I'm trying to rehabilitate Arnold's reputation but because that is no way to write history. Did anyone ever ask Arnold about these things? The only reports of him commenting on the 1943 missions over Germany relate to the commanders not being aggressive enough. Okay, what else did he say?

I don't believe Vlaun at face value because he has given me no reason to believe him. He's very confident about his incredibly partisan claim and that's all.

Where did this come from? The reason I ask is that I'm looking for a reasonably brief volume on the Eighth's campaign, from say 17 August, 1942 to the end of the war. I'm not looking for a blow-by-blow, mission-by-mission account. I already have a couple of books like that. I'm looking for something that discusses the strategy. My earlier comments should give you some idea of what I'm looking for.

In the meantime though, what you have said sounds like what I suspected: that the right arm didn't know what the left arm was doing. But that's true of any organisation and doesn't prove any malfeasance, incompetence, or agenda.

The most basic reading would reveal the ferry tanks were used on operations, half filled as that was the fuel needed to get a P-47 from start up to near operational height.
I'm trying to be polite here and I'd appreciate the same in return, thanks.

If you have a reference, I'd appreciate you simply pointing me to a reliable one, preferably in print because clearly, I have never seen this, otherwise I would not have asked. I'm not a big fan of having to wade through endless and mind-numbing online sources to find out which are good and which are pulp. As I said earlier, my copy of Bill's book arrived only yesterday and I have not had much of a chance to flip through it.

Nothing I have seen suggests that the ferry tank could get anywhere near operational height.
No, it was a matter of doctrine and ignoring considerable numbers of warning flags.
Then I am calling this claim of "doctrine" into question.

When I see a quote or two from a senior USAAF commander - like Arnold - that says something like, "We have to keep going with this to prove that our bomber theory works and we will do that by bombing targets and never mind the casualties as long as we are proven right", then I'll believe it's doctrine. But the silence is deafening. All the people involved have been presented as "faceless men". Un-personed. What's also deafening is the noise made by people like Vlaun and Greg, who can speak so confidently about this without presenting any sort of balance. The idea that "doctrine" was prioritised over operational or mission objectives is so incredible to me that they might as well be accused of spreading communism. That's how it comes across.

I'm afraid that the list that went with this quote really didn't tell me anything, other than um... a list of targets and tonnages dropped.

I'm not here - despite what it may seem - to have an argument. I'm here to attempt to unearth something approaching a fair representation of what happened. It seems to me that the mainstream boilerplate picture of this is incredibly one-sided. I outlined my reasons and my concerns in the first part of this post.

My reasons for believing that the P-47 drop tanks issue is just noise remain in tact. I think too many people have made too many assumptions of what might have been - or worse, what "would have happened", all without much understanding of what did happen. I'm trying to find out the latter, rather than accepting a technical argument as a substitute for a historical one. Many people have done this.
 
Hi Bill, thanks for your reply. I'm having a bit of trouble understanding it. I assume, for example, that "CONUS" is "continental US"...?

I'll get back on some of the more specific stuff but for now the only comment I'll make is that Greg is a "useful idiot" rather than an idiot. I think he deliberately ignores things to build his conspiracy theory and with it, his target audience.

FYI: my copy of your book arrived yesterday! I'm very keen to get into it, though I may have to do it in dribs and drabs because I'm in the middle of selling the family home, before moving to a coastal area.
 
Big Week 20-25 Feb 1944

Mustang III only arrived on 65 squadron in Dec 1943 with 19 & 122 converting in Feb 1944 to complete the first RAF Mustang wing. Hence the small numbers available for Big Week.
 
I don't think the P-51 with a V-1650-1 will actually do what you want it to do.
It will be better than P-51A with a V-1710-81 engine but to escort the bombers it needs to operate at around 25,000ft not 20,000ft.
Look at the performance figures for the P-51A (-81 Allison) and particularly the climb figures. Now shift them up by about 3000ft or even 4000ft.
Now compare them to figures of a P-51B. The P-51B is going to have around 50% more climb at 25-30,000ft which means it can maneuver much better without loosing speed anywhere near as much. All fighters tended to loose altitude as they fought, some lost so much that they could not get back into the "fight", as in regain their escort position.
Spitfire IXs could fight above the bombers. A P-51A with Merlin V-1650-1 was going to have a lot of trouble, it would be very fast in a straight line.
 
I think the whole Merlin Mustang project might have missed the boat if it had been a single-stage Merlin conversion. Looking at the letters, the impetus to fit the new 2-stage Merlin
was built around the projected 441mph TAS @ 25,600' with the Merlin 61, not the 400mph @ 18,600' with Merlin XX.

Eng
 
I understand your concern. Hence my suggestion about the Mustang X being turned from proof of a concept into a hundreds of them by Spring of 1943.
 
If a Merlin XX fighter was good idea why didn't the US try to use the P-40F?
OK, I can think of two reason.
1. lack of fuel but the P-40F held more fuel than a Spitfire.
2. It was slow? not as slow as many people think. At just under 20,000ft the P-40F was within 5mph of a Spitfire V (P-40F was actually faster).
Can't find good performance numbers for the P-40L although Curtiss claimed 370mph at 20,000ft.

What it could not do was climb do to weight.

Now do the Merlin -1 engines go to the super Mustangs and the some of the P-40Fs and most of the P-40Ls get built with Allisons?
And if so, which theaters get the super Mustangs and which theaters don't get 300-500 P-40s?
 
Speed of V-1650-1 powered Mustang vs. the P-40F?
Range?

Now do the Merlin -1 engines go to the super Mustangs and the some of the P-40Fs and most of the P-40Ls get built with Allisons?
And if so, which theaters get the super Mustangs and which theaters don't get 300-500 P-40s?
Remove the two HMGs and their ammo for starters from the P-40s. Clip the wings a bit.
Super Mustangs go against the Axis best, that is Luftwaffe.
 
Speed of V-1650-1 powered Mustang vs. the P-40F?
Range?
I have said the V-1650-1 powered Mustang would be better, but the P-40Fs already exist.
Remove the two HMGs and their ammo for starters from the P-40s. Clip the wings a bit.
P-40s are still too heavy. P-40Ls never got any of good weight reduction stuff that the P-40Ns got (aluminum radiators, oil coolers, wheels, etc) taking out a couple of guns and one of three internal fuel tanks is a desperation short cut, not a real solution. But since the Merlin powered P-40s used different radiators and oil coolers than the Allison powered planes did and since there only a limited number of P-40Ls that were on order perhaps it wasn't worthwhile to tool up for the light weight radiators/oil coolers.

Point I am trying to make (and failing) is that P-40 was not really slow (for the installed power) compared to just about everything except the Mustang. But neither of them could climb at 25-30,000ft using engines that only gave 1150-1200hp at 15,500-18,500ft.
Even a Spitfire V was only climbing at around 2/3rds the climb of a P-51B at 25-30,000ft and it was taking off at just under 7000lbs.
 
I have said the V-1650-1 powered Mustang would be better, but the P-40Fs already exist.
That does not make them a worthy investment if the engines can be installed in a better aircraft instead. Reduce the number of the P-40Fs as needed so the V-1650-1s can end up in the Mustangs.

if you don't like the idea of these Mustangs being used in the ETO, have them to be used in the MTO, and have the Mustang Xs in the ETO instead.
The qualifier 'not really slow for the installed power' is close to the qualifier 'but, R-1535 engine makes good power for it's displacement' - good for the bar bets, not good for war.
 
The qualifier 'not really slow for the installed power' is close to the qualifier 'but, R-1535 engine makes good power for it's displacement' - good for the bar bets, not good for war.
R-1535 didn't even make good power for it's displacement

Everybody dismisses the P-40 as a poor performer. But if we are looking at a 'design' we have to ask why?
If P-40 can run with a MK V Spit or a Ki-61 or the Reggiane Re.2001 Falco WHILE carrying an extra 1000-1500lbs how bad was the design?
Implementation may be a different story

What the P-40 could not do was climb and neither could any other fighter with it's power to weight ratio. US got around that problem by going to WEP and keeping the Allison P-40s at low altitude were WEP worked well.

Unfortunately for the Americans they were in a similar (but not as bad) position in late 1942 to the British in the summer/fall of 1940.
Do they build a limited number of really good fighters and large number of not very good fighters or do they stick the good engines in the not so good fighters and the not so good engines in the better fighter so they have a large number of sort of average fighters?
 

You know that I've tried to give the P-40 a fair shake here. It was not a bad design. Thing was that the other people were making and using better fighters. Allies didn't needed a fighter that is close to the Re 2001 or the Spitfire V - not when the Germans were using 190s and 109Fs and Gs - but something better.

Make a smaller number of better fighters. Install better engines on the better fighters - don't make the same mistake when Hurricane gotten the Merlin XX instead of Spitfire.
Allies were out-producing Axis already in 1941, and that is without the American production and with what Japanese were making.
 
Thing was that the other people were making and using better fighters. Allies didn't needed a fighter that is close to the Re 2001 or the Spitfire V - not when the Germans were using 190s and 109Fs and Gs - but something better.
Allison had a hard time with a better supercharger for the Allison and the USAAC wanted a crap load of Allison's yesterday. Not really Curtiss's fault.
It worked out the the British. The Germans went to night bombing and the daylight battles were pretty much put on hold. But just like the Germans didn't know how many aircraft the British were actually making, the British didn't know how many the Germans were making.
And in 1942 none of the Allies had any real idea of what the Japanese were making or how few planes they actually used to take over the far east. Demands for more and more production often outweighed improvements.
Allies were often in near panic mode in the summer of 1942. Better fighters for spring of 1943 or more fighters of any sort in the summer of 1942 to keep the Japanese from taking Australia/India? The Allies had no idea how close the Japanese came to failing in Jan-March of 1942.

I Have no idea why Allison could not sort of copy the Supercharger from the Merlin XX. Or sort of leap frog it with a two speed Merlin 46 style supercharger.
The Army was the "contractor" for the P-38. The Army was buying the engines from Allison, the Turbos from GE, letting Lockheed design the early intercoolers and were contracting the turbo regulators to another company after the army designed the turbo regulator system themselves. Plenty of finger pointing and blaming the the other guy. They had to redo the turbo regulator. But the Army wanted more and more Allison engines. Not enough R&D.
 
As an Australian, the P-40 gets a lot of respect because of its role in the defence of Port Moresby and Milne Bay. While the credit must go to the pilots who, in the case of 75 Sqn, RAAF, fought almost to a man while suffering the most appalling gastric infections, including dysentery, it's clear that the aircraft served them well, regardless of its performance numbers.

It was there when we needed it and it did the job in the most hostile tropical environment. Our only alternatives were the Buffalo and the Wirraway. The Wirraway worked well enough in close air support but was totally outclassed against the Zero and the Buffalo wasn't considered up to the job. In fact, it was universally hated here. It spent the war in Perth, the most remote capital city in the world… Just my 2 cents.
 
But the P-40 could and did hold it's own against Axis fighters in every single theater of WWII.

Granted, it was not suitable at higher altitudes, but down low, it proved to be a very capable adversary.
 
But the P-40 could and did hold it's own against Axis fighters in every single theater of WWII.

Granted, it was not suitable at higher altitudes, but down low, it proved to be a very capable adversary.

In the hands of a good pilot, a P-40, especially later models, was a dangerous plane even into 1944.
 
Of course, the single-stage 2-speed Merlin versions of the P-40 illustrate why the P-51 really did need the two-stage Merlin to become what it was.
To me, the Elephant in the room is why the V-1710 never got the blower(s) that it, maybe, deserved. It seems to me that the V-1710 was, in parts, a very good engine but it always missed the boat on development. Was it a victim of the USA Radial Mafia?

Eng
 
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Allison had a hard time with a better supercharger for the Allison and the USAAC wanted a crap load of Allison's yesterday. Not really Curtiss's fault.
Not really trying to point fingers at Curtiss; yes, V-1710 was behind the curve.


Allies certainly didn't know the Axis production as acurately as we know today, but they should've arrived at a realistic ballpark.
Making the V-1650-1 powered Mustangs increases the number of fighters produced, it is not decreasing them - the A-36 does not get built.

BTW - the USAAF have had a funny way of acknowledging that they are panicking and that they need more fighters - they almost allowed the P-51 program to be shut down.

I Have no idea why Allison could not sort of copy the Supercharger from the Merlin XX. Or sort of leap frog it with a two speed Merlin 46 style supercharger.
It took them a year to fix the S/C drive in order for the 'faster' S/C to work.
Arriving 'only' at the Merlin 45 standard by early 1942 would've been a major boon for the Allied war effort.

To me, the Elephant in the room is why the V-1710 never got the blower(s) that it, maybe, deserved. I seems to me that the V-1710 was, in parts, a very good engine but it always missed the boat on development.
Agreed 100%.
 
But the P-40 could and did hold it's own against Axis fighters in every single theater of WWII.

Granted, it was not suitable at higher altitudes, but down low, it proved to be a very capable adversary.
Check out a possible scenario: USAAF sends 100 B-25s to bomb something in Italy in 1943. Enemy has fighters that can do 370-410 mph.
USAAF escorts are, option a) P-40Fs, and or option b) P-51s with the same engine. Thirty aircraft each. One type can do 360+ mph, another does 400-410 mph. I'd pick the option b (it even has a better fuel tankage, so we don't need to keep one eye glued to the fuel gauge).

Problem with this scenario is that the option b) didn't existed.
 
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Yes, and the Army was not paying for the R&D, nor did GE. The later development of the auxiliary second stage was self financed.

That said, the added length and implementation issues killed both retrofit into P-39 and P-40 and P-51 Allison based airframes.
 

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