Griffon Spitfire was better than any Bf109?

[ROK-BIRDMAN]

This chart is showing Spitfire Mk.XIV was overwhelmed all of Bf109Gs.
I think Spit can overwhelmed Bf109s for climbing rate and turn radious too.
So Griffon Spit was better fighter than Bf109?

 

[Greyman]

By the time the evolution of Willy Messerschmitt's basic design had reached the G-series it was no longer a great fighter, but it was still a solid all-rounder and the Bf 109G had greater flexibility from some aspects then preceding sub-types. ... If the Bf 109G could no longer take on the later Allied fighters on even terms during the last year of the war, this reflected no discredit on the design team that had conceived it.

-- Eric Brown​

 

[pbehn]

View attachment 676972
This chart is showing Spitfire Mk.XIV was overwhelmed all of Bf109Gs.
I think Spit can overwhelmed Bf109s for climbing rate and turn radious too.
So Griffon Spit was better fighter than Bf109?

The Mk XIV

View attachment 676972
This chart is showing Spitfire Mk.XIV was overwhelmed all of Bf109Gs.
I think Spit can overwhelmed Bf109s for climbing rate and turn radious too.
So Griffon Spit was better fighter than Bf109?

The Spitfire Mk XIV and later had two stage Griffons, The Mk IV (XX) prototype and the XII had single stage engines, obviously not so good at higher altitudes.

 

[ROK-BIRDMAN]

Mk XIV

Spitfire Mk XIV 이후에는 2단 Griffons가 있었는데 Mk IV(XX) 프로토타입과 XII는 1단 엔진을 사용했는데 분명히 더 높은 고도에서는 좋지 않습니다.

Do you have any chart data to prove your ?

 

[ROK-BIRDMAN]

By the time the evolution of Willy Messerschmitt's basic design had reached the G-series it was no longer a great fighter, but it was still a solid all-rounder and the Bf 109G had greater flexibility from some aspects then preceding sub-types. ... If the Bf 109G could no longer take on the later Allied fighters on even terms during the last year of the war, this reflected no discredit on the design team that had conceived it.

-- Eric Brown​

Conditions in Germany during the last year of the war, however, were not conducive to aircraft achieving maximum theoretical performance levels. Hans Knickrehm of I/JG 3 recalled the condition of new Me 109 G-14/AS's received by his group in October, 1944.​

The machines that were delivered were technically obsolete and of considerably lowered quality. The engines proved prone to trouble after much too short a time, because the factories had had to sharply curtail test runs for lack of fuel. The surface finish of the outer skin also left much to be desired. The sprayed-on camouflage finish was rough and uneven. The result was a further reduction in speed. We often discovered clear cases of sabotage during our acceptance checks. Cables or wires were not secured, were improperly attached, scratched or had even been visibly cut.​

At a conference in Berlin on 20 January 1945, with the Chief Engineer of the Luftwaffe, it was reported that the Me 109 airframe was extraordinarily bad and performance outrageously low. Daimler-Benz noted that there was no point in continually increasing engine power when the airframes were getting worse due to sloppy manufacturing. A comparison between the Me 109 and the Mustang was devastating.​

Im Zusammenhang mit der Zellenfrage wird von den Herren berichtet, dass die Leistung der Zelle ausser-ordentlich schlecht und zum Teil unerhört niedrig liege. Auch hier weist DB wieder daraufhin, dass es keinen Zweck hat, den Motor dauernd in der Leistung aufzustocken, während die Zellen durch Fabrikations-ungenauigkeit etc. immer schlechter werden und damit den durch die Steigerung der Motorleistung möglichen Geschwindigkeitsgewinn wieder zunichte machen. Es wird seitens der Herren des Chef.Ing. davon berichtet, dass die gegenüberstellende Vorführung einer Mustang und einer Me 109 für Herrn Sauer geplant war, dass jedoch Herr Sauer selbst leider nicht erschienen sei. Die Gegenüberstellung der beiden Maschinen sei, was die Ausführung der Me 109 angelange geradezu niederschmetternd.​

Eric Brown was a great test pilot but test and real combat was different.
German fighters were using 87 octane fuel but US, UK using 100/150 octane fuel when they are testing captured Bf109.
And many captured Bf109, Fw190 were tested when there weapons were removed.​

 

[pbehn]

Do you have any chart data to prove your ?

No, do you need one? There werent many made, about 100, the second stage on the supercharger improved high altitude performance.

 

[ROK-BIRDMAN]

No, do you need one? There werent many made, about 100, the second stage on the supercharger improved high altitude performance.

This chart is showing Griffon Spit with +21 boost can overperform and +18 also.

 

[pbehn]

View attachment 677013
This chart is showing Griffon Spit with +21 boost can overperform and +18 also.

Spitfire Mk XII Performance Testing

Spitfire Performance Testing, wartime flight trials and reports of Spitfire aircraft. Spitfire Mk XII data.

www.spitfireperformance.com

 

[ROK-BIRDMAN]

Spitfire Mk XII Performance Testing

Spitfire Performance Testing, wartime flight trials and reports of Spitfire aircraft. Spitfire Mk XII data.

www.spitfireperformance.com

I was talking about Mk. XIV, and compared with later model of Bf109 G and K.
Mk. XII was compared with G-6 or G-6 late.

 

[pbehn]

I was talking about Mk. XIV, and compared with later model of Bf109 G and K.
Mk. XII was compared with G-6 or G-6 late.

But your thread title just say "Griffon Spitfire", my point was that there was more than one type.

 

[ROK-BIRDMAN]

But your thread title just say "Griffon Spitfire", my point was that there was more than one type.

XII was rarely used in combat.
In general, the Griffon Spitfire means XIV, and later models, and I just described the XIV, which was used most often in World War II, as the Griffon Spitfire.
I accept misleading titles.

 

[GregP]

View attachment 676972
This chart is showing Spitfire Mk.XIV was overwhelmed all of Bf109Gs.
I think Spit can overwhelmed Bf109s for climbing rate and turn radious too.
So Griffon Spit was better fighter than Bf109?

They built 1,700+ Bf 109 K-4s that were slightly faster than the Mk XIV and also had an excellent climb rate.

 

[ROK-BIRDMAN]

They built 1,700+ Bf 109 K-4s that were slightly faster than the Mk XIV and also had an excellent climb rate.

check this chart

 

[ROK-BIRDMAN]

They built 1,700+ Bf 109 K-4s that were slightly faster than the Mk XIV and also had an excellent climb rate.

and re check this text.

Conditions in Germany during the last year of the war, however, were not conducive to aircraft achieving maximum theoretical performance levels. Hans Knickrehm of I/JG 3 recalled the condition of new Me 109 G-14/AS's received by his group in October, 1944.

The machines that were delivered were technically obsolete and of considerably lowered quality. The engines proved prone to trouble after much too short a time, because the factories had had to sharply curtail test runs for lack of fuel. The surface finish of the outer skin also left much to be desired. The sprayed-on camouflage finish was rough and uneven. The result was a further reduction in speed. We often discovered clear cases of sabotage during our acceptance checks. Cables or wires were not secured, were improperly attached, scratched or had even been visibly cut.

At a conference in Berlin on 20 January 1945, with the Chief Engineer of the Luftwaffe, it was reported that the Me 109 airframe was extraordinarily bad and performance outrageously low. Daimler-Benz noted that there was no point in continually increasing engine power when the airframes were getting worse due to sloppy manufacturing. A comparison between the Me 109 and the Mustang was devastating.

Im Zusammenhang mit der Zellenfrage wird von den Herren berichtet, dass die Leistung der Zelle ausser-ordentlich schlecht und zum Teil unerhört niedrig liege. Auch hier weist DB wieder daraufhin, dass es keinen Zweck hat, den Motor dauernd in der Leistung aufzustocken, während die Zellen durch Fabrikations-ungenauigkeit etc. immer schlechter werden und damit den durch die Steigerung der Motorleistung möglichen Geschwindigkeitsgewinn wieder zunichte machen. Es wird seitens der Herren des Chef.Ing. davon berichtet, dass die gegenüberstellende Vorführung einer Mustang und einer Me 109 für Herrn Sauer geplant war, dass jedoch Herr Sauer selbst leider nicht erschienen sei. Die Gegenüberstellung der beiden Maschinen sei, was die Ausführung der Me 109 angelange geradezu niederschmetternd.

Bf109K-4 was really fast but luftwaffe couldn't bring all of K-4's strength.
They used low octane fuel and really bad surface treatment.

 

[GregP]

and re check this text.

Conditions in Germany during the last year of the war, however, were not conducive to aircraft achieving maximum theoretical performance levels. Hans Knickrehm of I/JG 3 recalled the condition of new Me 109 G-14/AS's received by his group in October, 1944.



At a conference in Berlin on 20 January 1945, with the Chief Engineer of the Luftwaffe, it was reported that the Me 109 airframe was extraordinarily bad and performance outrageously low. Daimler-Benz noted that there was no point in continually increasing engine power when the airframes were getting worse due to sloppy manufacturing. A comparison between the Me 109 and the Mustang was devastating.




Bf109K-4 was really fast but luftwaffe couldn't bring all of K-4's strength.
They used low octane fuel and really bad surface treatment.

No need to recheck the text. The Bf 109 K-4 was faster at max power and the DID have an excellent climb rate. If you re-read my post, I didn't say it was better than the XIV, I said it was excellent. The Bf 109 and Spitfire went back and forth over the course of the war with the "best" title, and the K-4 wasn't far off the mark.

I like the Spitfire XIV better myself, but you can find any number of people who feel the other way about the Bf 109 K-4. It's always easier to hand-pick planes that don't quite perform as well as your favorite and post how great it was. The Bf 109G-1 came out in May 1942. The Bf 109G-6 came out in Mar 1943. The Bf 109K came out in Oct 1944. The Spitfire XIV came out in Mar 1944. I'd say the Spitfire XIV and Bf 109K were contemporaries much more so than the Bf 109G series were.

But, hey, the XIV handily outperformed MOST airplanes, at least in SOME category, if not in range (combat range was 460 miles). It was a "hot Rod" if ever there WAS one. One could make the same claims for the Bf 109K-4, including short range (combat range was 354 miles). The airframe was never "hopeless," and was used for a couple of decades after WWII ended. There were "fixes" that COULD have been made, and some were flown in prototype form, including, but not limited to, a full blown canopy, inward-folding landing gear, fully-retractible tailwheels. etc.

Here's a radial-powered Bf 109 with a much better canopy than was normally used:

Here's an Me 209 with better canopy and inward-retracting gear:

So, there WERE solutions to the issues that were tried. They were just never adopted because, by the time they were developed, the war wasn't going so well and the quality of the pilots was also taking a dive as attrition happened. War situation usually trumps pilot desires for better airplanes when the situation isn't exactly rosy.

 

[GregP]

Out of curiosity, where did your charts above come from? I've seen the website, but can't find it just now.

Thanks!

 

[Greyman]

Spitfire Mk XIV versus Me 109 G/K

Spitfire Mk XIV versus Me 109 G/K performance comparison, wartime flight trials and data analysis.

www.spitfireperformance.com

 

[SplitRz]

Hmmmm....

"Eric Brown was a great test pilot but test and real combat was different"

I think anyone who really knows what they're talking about would check a few things before making statements like that (if they didn't know already).

He was *the most* decorated Fleet Air Arm pilot ever. The RN aren't in the habit of handing out gongs to back-room theoreticians.

He won his DFC for shooting down 2 FW200 Condors. He went on to shoot down a number of other fighters and bombers during his combat service

He also flew combat missions with the Canadian air-force, escorting B17s, as well as missions against V1s

Much of his wartime test pilot career was used *precisely* to assess aircraft for their potential operational combat strengths and weaknesses drawing upon his extensive service combat experience.

His opinion surely counts 100% more than any armchair forum 'expert', unless they can claim to rival either his detailed technical knowledge of the aircraft in question (from having actually flown them in the real world), or his extensive combat experience...?

 

[Milosh]

Greg, stop listening to Kurfurst. The only K-4s that could compete with the Spit XIV was those that had MW50. This wasn't authorized til late March '45 and is questionable if methanol was readily available at that time.

 

[GregP]

Hi Milosh.

I don't listen to Kurfurst at all. His site seems to take the highest numbers ever found or calculated and tout them as normal performance.

I prefer to take maybe 10 numbers, throw out the two highs and two lows, and average the other six ... assuming you can FIND that many.

Whoever you check, the Bf 109 K-4 was fast, climbed well, and was easily one of the best of the Bf 109 series. But, by the time it made its debut, many of the best Luftwaffe pilots had died. Still, in the hands of a veteran, the K-4 was a very tough customer for any single-engine fighter it encountered, unless, of course, unless it encountered 700 enemy fighters. Then, all it could do was run for a short while before getting shot down or running out of fuel with the same overall result.