In principle correct, however from June to December bomber command lost 330 aircraft and 1,400 aircrew. Only the loss of aircrew was significant, just as the UK had ramped up fighter production, it ramped up bomber production with new types on the way and older types phased out. The LW as a bomber force was at its peak before the invasion of France. After the BoB the needs of many areas found that the Ju88 was the answer, and the He111 and Do 17 couldnt survive long after Barbarossa ground to a halt.
Groundhog Thread v. 2.0 - The most important battle of WW2
- Thread starter NightHawk
- Start date
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
Thumpalumpacus
Major
David Kahn's Seizing the Enigma is an excellent read on how the Allies used SIGINT to combat U-boat depredations. The victory in the Atlantic, mainly accomplished by summer of 1943, was not a matter of "chance". It was a matter of devoted investigation, as well as using aircraft (both land-based and shipborne) to close the Mid-Atlantic gap, and the simple hardy bravery of merchantmen sailing under various flags straight into an arena where not only subs were aiming at you, but often nature itself was hostile.
Link is here for anyone interested in reading his book, which focuses on SIGINT rather than the more mundane difficulties faced by seamen sailing that crossing. (I have no affiliation, just grabbed the first link for the book itself).
As an aside, Kahn also crafted some of the most devilish crossword puzzles I've ever encountered, probably (in my opinion) due to his expertise in crypto. His grids are usually very open, and he seems to avoid key break-in signatures like rare letters (Z, K, X, etc), so you have a 25-letter answer that gives you very few tells at all. I don't think he does them any more, but for years he contributed to the NYT crossword, and in that hard puzzle-space stands out as one of the most difficult puzzle authors.
Last edited:
As an Amazon Associate we earn from qualifying purchases.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
It was all coinkidinck.
Pure chance as everyone knows, to me its a miracle that people were continually convinced it was chance in spite of all evidence and the laws of probability.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
My Uncle Jimmy was in on that, the groups were vectored to very precise coordinates to create a "net" that nothing was going to get through without one of the groups knowing.
Obviously, it worked well.
They must have fallen into that old code breaking trap too? Or maybe you just described how breaking a code turns a microscopically small chance into an almost certain kill, as happened in the Atlantic with submarines and convoys.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Or...or someone from the future read what happened on a WWII forum, thought it sounded like a good idea and went back in time and tried it.
Now you have posted it, it is an internet fact.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
It is American exceptionalism, that by pure random chance, a high priority asset was eliminated and by pure random entropy and with a snare net to ensure that the nothing that wasn't there escaped. FACT
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Nope, pure chance. That guy said so.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
I still say it's a robot.
I am starting to see it all clearly now. You have just as much chance of seeing a LW raid across the channel in a deck chair on Biggin Hill as you have at 25,000 ft over Dover, which is why RADAR is useless, always was always will be.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
It just so happens that larger drop-tanks were flown to Henderson right before the attack, and we all know how P-38s always stooged around Bougainville waiting for the odd admiral to show up. Nothing to see here, please keep moving along.
I'm sticking with the Energizer Bunny, but to be fair that's a robot too ... though not a bright one.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
And with that I think I'm off to watch some Drachinifel or other documentary. Fajitas eaten, beer drank, and s**tposting done, it's a good start to my weekend.
ETA: I've got an old Chuck Yeager interview on vid, I think that'll scratch the itch.
ETA: I've got an old Chuck Yeager interview on vid, I think that'll scratch the itch.
But this is further evidence of falling into the code breakers trap, larger drop tanks were distributed by chance, obviously some would end up being fitted to a plane that stumbled across an Admiral eventually.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Damn you, nonfalsifiability!
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Yep, my Uncle Jimmy and the other guys were all hanging around, stealing money from the Navy guys during a crap game when all of a sudden, someone said "hey, let's strap those long range tanks on our crates and go for a ride!"
Everyone thought it was a good idea because you can only drink so much warm beer while depriving the Navy guys of their pocket change, before things get boring.
And so off they go, fooling around when all of a sudden, some G4Ms and A6Ms interfere with their jaunt.
Being irritated, they shoot them down because Army guys are like that.
The fact that out of the all the expanse of the Pacific, Yamammoto *just happened to be there* is irrelevant...
Hey, I bet they had a real laugh when they got the news in the papers about who was in that plane, that would be worth a round of drinks.
ThomasP
Senior Master Sergeant
Hey ljadw,
re "It was the same for NA : in November 1941 the Italians sent 79000 ton of materiel to NA of which 30 000 ton arrived (37 % ) ,in December 1942 they sent 13000 ton of which 6000 arrived ( 47 % ) ,what was better :47 % or 37 % ? It is obvious that 37 % was better ,and if in December 1942,100 % arrived (13000 ) , it is obvious that 37 % was better ,because more was sent in November 1941 ."
This is actually a quite irrational argument. It is akin to saying "It does not matter if 47% of an artificial heart arrives at North Memorial Hospital or only 37% of a bigger artificial heart." The important aspect is that you have enough parts to construct a working artificial heart.
This type of argument is similar to "If you move toward the door, and with every step you reduce the length of the step by 1/2, you can never reach the door." In real life this could happen only if you do not want to reach the door.
Remember, the universe is based on the laws of addition, not multiplication.
re "It was the same for NA : in November 1941 the Italians sent 79000 ton of materiel to NA of which 30 000 ton arrived (37 % ) ,in December 1942 they sent 13000 ton of which 6000 arrived ( 47 % ) ,what was better :47 % or 37 % ? It is obvious that 37 % was better ,and if in December 1942,100 % arrived (13000 ) , it is obvious that 37 % was better ,because more was sent in November 1941 ."
This is actually a quite irrational argument. It is akin to saying "It does not matter if 47% of an artificial heart arrives at North Memorial Hospital or only 37% of a bigger artificial heart." The important aspect is that you have enough parts to construct a working artificial heart.
This type of argument is similar to "If you move toward the door, and with every step you reduce the length of the step by 1/2, you can never reach the door." In real life this could happen only if you do not want to reach the door.
Remember, the universe is based on the laws of addition, not multiplication.
