Gunner rifles
- Thread starter 415amh
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Never knew there was one...
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The only rifle I'm aware of, that was issued to an aircrew, was the Luftwaffe's M30 "Drilling" made by Saur. It was a three barreled firearm that consisted of a side-by-side 12ga. shotgun and a 9.3x74mmR rifle below and between the shotgun barrels. It was mostly issued to aircrew in North Africa and in some areas on the Eastern Front.
With U.S. aircrews, they carried side arms, either issued or personal.
With U.S. aircrews, they carried side arms, either issued or personal.
Shortround6
Major General
Are you referring to this?
H & R M4 survival rifle, chambered for .22 Hornet.
I have no idea how many were actually issued/used.
This is a post war gun so not used by B-17 crews. It does show that trying to use full sized rifles by aircrew was not well thought of. Not saying a few crewmen didn't carry something but trying to bail out of a B-17 with a full sized rifle might cause the crewman to get hung up in the hatch (escape Hatches not being the sizeof paratrooper doors)
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
I beleive that M4 was the inspiration for the AR-7, which I had ages ago.
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- #6
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- #7
Now, I am wondering if the B-17 gunners would have been issued some sort or hand gun in case of parachuting out. I can't imagine the military leaving them defenseless. It makes sense that they would not have had a rifle. What I saw didn't look like the picture. It seemed to have a wooden stock and shorter, much smaller. I appreciate all answers.
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
I believe some B-17 aircrew may have carried a pistol, by personal choice, and I have heard mention of the M-1 carbine, although as already mentioned, it would be cumbersome, and unwelcome when bailing out !
Also, many thought it best not to have a personal weapon, as this, in the event of imminent capture, could lead to being fired upon by the enemy.
The only rifle I know of carried as 'standard' equipment, was the Kar98K, carried in the rear fuselage of the Bf109 in North Africa, intended as a survival weapon, along with emergency rations, water and a medical kit.
Also, many thought it best not to have a personal weapon, as this, in the event of imminent capture, could lead to being fired upon by the enemy.
The only rifle I know of carried as 'standard' equipment, was the Kar98K, carried in the rear fuselage of the Bf109 in North Africa, intended as a survival weapon, along with emergency rations, water and a medical kit.
Shortround6
Major General
US Air crew in WW II could have Colt .45 Pistols or .38 revolvers. How many crewman carried such weapons I don't know. That was what was in inventory and available for issue.
The folding stock M1 carbine
was built in late 1942 to the tune of about 140,000 out of the approximately 6 million M1 carbines built during the war. (they built 1.3 million Thompson submachine guns), While 140,000 sounds like a lot getting them into the USAAF supply chain might have been difficult.
The later survival rifles were intended to allow downed crewmen to survive in hostile terrain/environment for a number of days or several weeks by protecting the crewmen against wild animals or allowing them to hunt for food. Not to engage enemy troops.
AR-5 was an updated M-4
The M-6 really shows the hunting aspect.
The upper barrel was a .22 Hornet centerfire and the lower was a .410 shotgun. spare ammo was held in the but under the folding top cover.
Note the firing bar/trigger that could be operated with a hand still in a mitten for arctic weather.
The folding stock M1 carbine
was built in late 1942 to the tune of about 140,000 out of the approximately 6 million M1 carbines built during the war. (they built 1.3 million Thompson submachine guns), While 140,000 sounds like a lot getting them into the USAAF supply chain might have been difficult.
The later survival rifles were intended to allow downed crewmen to survive in hostile terrain/environment for a number of days or several weeks by protecting the crewmen against wild animals or allowing them to hunt for food. Not to engage enemy troops.
AR-5 was an updated M-4
The M-6 really shows the hunting aspect.
The upper barrel was a .22 Hornet centerfire and the lower was a .410 shotgun. spare ammo was held in the but under the folding top cover.
Note the firing bar/trigger that could be operated with a hand still in a mitten for arctic weather.
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YF12A
Airman
A very long time ago I remember asking my neighbor, former C/O of the 303rd B/G, if he carried a firearm. His response was that as he was the pilot in command and was going to be the last man out of the airplane no matter what, the only thing he was going to carry was his parachute as he knew that if/when it came to that and "if" he was able to get out of his B-17, which was a big question due to the obvious situation, he was going to dive through the nose hatch, buckle his chute on and then not worry about what came next as he was already in a SHTF moment. He did say he liked hearing the top turret .50's going off as it meant the gunner was still on the job!
MACHIA
Airman
My Uncle was a B-17 pilot 1942-1945, he carried a side arm as did his co-pilot , navigator and entire crew.
special ed
1st Sergeant
- 5,039
- May 13, 2018
Not in Europe but in the Pacific ( my late Father in law was 19th bomb group, Australia) most flyers had personal hand guns of varying types. After a rumor about the Japanese shooting downed aircrew if they had soft nose lead bullets. Although the Japanese were not part of the Geneva convention, they supposedly claimed .38 specials were in violation. As a result, many began to swap for .45 autos which allowed my father in law to obtain a very nice nickel plated .38 with ivory grips.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Just curious, but how would a Japanese pilot know what type of sidearm (let alone the ammo type) the pilot in the silk was carrying?
Shortround6
Major General
Once captured ?
However the US issued full jacket .38 special rounds,
from wiki;
During World War II, some U.S. aircrew (primarily Navy and Marine Corps) were issued .38 Special S&W Victory revolvers as sidearms in the event of a forced landing. In May 1943, a new .38 Special cartridge with a 158 grains (10.2 g), full-steel-jacketed, copper flash-coated bullet meeting the requirements of the rules of land warfare was developed at Springfield Armory and adopted for the Smith & Wesson revolvers.[17] The new military .38 Special loading propelled its 158 grains (10.2 g) bullet at a standard 850 ft/s (260 m/s) from a 4-inch (100 mm) revolver barrel.[17]
there were earlier full metal jacket civilian loadings.
However the US issued full jacket .38 special rounds,
from wiki;
During World War II, some U.S. aircrew (primarily Navy and Marine Corps) were issued .38 Special S&W Victory revolvers as sidearms in the event of a forced landing. In May 1943, a new .38 Special cartridge with a 158 grains (10.2 g), full-steel-jacketed, copper flash-coated bullet meeting the requirements of the rules of land warfare was developed at Springfield Armory and adopted for the Smith & Wesson revolvers.[17] The new military .38 Special loading propelled its 158 grains (10.2 g) bullet at a standard 850 ft/s (260 m/s) from a 4-inch (100 mm) revolver barrel.[17]
there were earlier full metal jacket civilian loadings.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Ahh...my bad, I had read it to say "shooting down aircrew"...
Need to brush up on my reading skills, it seems
Need to brush up on my reading skills, it seems
special ed
1st Sergeant
- 5,039
- May 13, 2018
Although he never said, the way I remember it, the airmen bought the .38s and commercial ammo in Australia. It was a free country then lol.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Keep in mind that USN pilots were issued .38 revolvers and USAAF pilots were issued .45 semi-automatic pistols.
It would not be all that hard for an Army pilot to "wheel and deal" to get a Navy S&W and vice-versa.
It would not be all that hard for an Army pilot to "wheel and deal" to get a Navy S&W and vice-versa.
