Hans-Joachim Marseille in another fighter?

[aircro]

He flew an ME-109F in Africa, right? Would probably have been a stud in a -190 too.

Ace on also Emils and Friedrichs, so no need/waist of time to go train on Wurger

 

[GrauGeist]

Wouldn't be a waste ot time to get Marseilles into an Fw190 - the Fw190 generally had better firepower and better maneuverability at low to medium altitudes.

If Marseilles was great in a 109, he would have been a beast in a 190.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Ace on also Emils and Friedrichs, so no need/waist of time to go train on Wurger

I know. I was answering the question in the thread title, not discussing what he needed to round out his C.V.

 

[GrauGeist]

I know. I was answering the question in the thread title, not discussing what he needed to round out his C.V.

Knowing the pilot's abilities and the machines (and their attributes) available at the time can avoid embarrassing comments.

But some people seem oblivious to that...

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Knowing the pilot's abilities and the machines (and their attributes) available at the time can avoid embarrassing comments.

But some people seem oblivious to that...

I don't know that much about HJM, as can be seen from my questions upthread. But anyone who gains, what was it, 158 kills (or claims?) obviously knows how to fly, fight, and win -- and I doubt at that point the particular machines matter so long as they're in the ballpark of the enemy's aircraft, which the -190 clearly was.

 

[GrauGeist]

I don't know that much about HJM, as can be seen from my questions upthread. But anyone who gains, what was it, 158 kills (or claims?) obviously knows how to fly, fight, and win -- and I doubt at that point the particular machines matter so long as they're in the ballpark of the enemy's aircraft, which the -190 clearly was.

Marseilles was not a man of large stature and was not doing well, health-wise in his later days but still managed to push his 109 to it's limits, which is impressive.
Had he been in a 190, with it's better performance and easier handling, he would have been, in my opinion, a terrifying adversary.

One of the better Fw190 Aces, was Gerhard Thyben, who was well known to push his Fw190 to it's limits in turning fights and his observation was that the Fw190's responsive controls and engine power allowed him the ability get the best of his opponents in a turning fight.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Marseilles was not a man of large stature and was not doing well, health-wise in his later days but still managed to push his 109 to it's limits, which is impressive.
Had he been in a 190, with it's better performance and easier handling, he would have been, in my opinion, a terrifying adversary.

One of the better Fw190 Aces, was Gerhard Thyben, who was well known to push his Fw190 to it's limits in turning fights and his observation was that the Fw190's responsive controls and engine power allowed him the ability get the best of his opponents in a turning fight.

All I know is that I'm in no position to critique, given that I'm not a pilot nor a combat veteran.

Having said that -- good gear matters. Good training, good instincts, and good guts matter just as much, it seems to me.

 

[Snautzer01]

But before pressure suits, build of the pilot mattered too. At 1,73 and thin with the high loads he enduced on plane at himself diving snap turning would have been tough on his body i think. Btw 1,73 is a bit over normal but i will look in to that again.

 

[Escuadrilla Azul]

But before pressure suits, build of the pilot mattered too. At 1,73 and thin with the high loads he enduced on plane at himself diving snap turning would have been tough on his body i think. Btw 1,73 is a bit over normal but i will look in to that again.

Don't forget the pilot position in the 109 (& the 190) where the legs were stretched, unlike allied fighters where the pilots were more seated.

That aided to face higher g-loads without blackout.

 

[Escuadrilla Azul]

After watching the 2 vids BlackSheep shared ny question is:

How many kills (claims) could had achieve Marseille if he hadn't died in the accident? Could he had survived the war given his reckless flying?

 

[BlackSheep]

Flying for Germany in WW2 under fly until you die conditions, I have my doubts as to how he could have survived the war.
Everything about the man, out of the cockpit and in it reminds me of another hard partying, hard to control womanizer with a certain talent for shooting down enemy planes, namely Pappy Boyington, who finished the war as a POW.
Initially, I would be inclined to suggest that perhaps Marseille would have benefited from a more structured training program, like the American habit of rotating pilots out of combat to training positions etc but like Gruppenkommander Eduard Neumann who373338 said, " Marseille could only be one of two, either a disciplinary problem or a great fighter pilot." , I believe thayz IT has a great I

 

[PAT303]

He sounds more and more like Burling, he was sent to Malta because the RAF couldn't restrain him in England, he thrived over Malta and pulled off possibly the best shot of the war, knocking down a 109 from about 600 yards.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Flying for Germany in WW2 under fly until you die conditions, I have my doubts as to how he could have survived the war.
Everything about the man, out of the cockpit and in it reminds me of another hard partying, hard to control womanizer with a certain talent for shooting down enemy planes, namely Pappy Boyington, who finished the war as a POW.
Initially, I would be inclined to suggest that perhaps Marseille would have benefited from a more structured training program, like the American habit of rotating pilots out of combat to training positions etc but like Gruppenkommander Eduard Neumann who373338 said, " Marseille could only be one of two, either a disciplinary problem or a great fighter pilot." , I believe thayz IT has a great I

I think the thread is about him in another airframe, notwithstanding that your points may well be apt.

 

[BlackSheep]

How, do you think, would Hans-Joachim have gotten along with another plane? Would he have been just as successful?

My knee-jerk answer, if he had another German plane would be the FW-190, especially if it incorporates any sort of assist with the control surfaces. I'm not 100% sure so this is more feelings than fact (you know what they say about feelings) but the Fw-190 seems sturdier and we are talking about not just a Luftwaffe Ace many times over but an American one at least once over, perhaps twice. Perhaps, the 190 would have held up better to his manner of flying.

Given a little leeway on the timeline and a lot on the ownership, I'd like to see him in a P-51C or D.

Lastly, if the only parameter is that the fighter had to have something to do with WW2, imagine "the Star of Africa" in the cockpit of a F8F Bearcat…..

 

[SaparotRob]

Why not? The Bearcat is just an FW-190 knock off

 

[Just Schmidt]

Imagine what a marksman of his caliber could have accomplished with a 37 mil on the centreline...

 

[GrauGeist]

Marseilles had a 20mm motorkannone in his Bf109F-4.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Marseilles had a 20mm motorkannone in his Bf109F-4.

Yabut did he ever have nose armor? I think not.

 

[BlackSheep]

If the reports of his flying and marksmanship skill are only half true that still would make him exceptional, even if his score tally would have only been 50 % of the real one. It might be all against Spitfires without Vokes filter. Against such machines it would take him more effort to get into position but as his abilities and control over his mount apparently were on top of even other aces one can assume that his victory count would have been high regardless.
According to other aces such as Heinz Bär the only other ace which came close to Marseille in deflection shooting was Günther Rall and that guy scored 275 kills making him the third in the all-time list behind Barkhorn and Hartmann.
The same argument against Marseille can be applied to most Luftwaffe aces who scored so many kills against droves and droves of inferior enemy aircraft on the Eastern front.

@BiffF15 : What are close range high aspect ratio shots?

Agree with you. When I see disparaging comments about a particular pilot, such as Marseille, with the usual "he had a better plane and faced schoolboys in converted gliders firing matchlocks offhand at him, I always wonder, then why is he such a stand out, shouldn't all of his peers have similar scores? After all, they were flying against the same foes, right?

 

[BlackSheep]

Imagine what a marksman of his caliber could have accomplished with a 37 mil on the centreline...

If only someone had the foresight to design such an advanced machine, Cadillac of the sky? Hardly… Give me the "Sniper of the Sky" and stay out of my way!