Hans-Joachim Marseille in another fighter?

[GregP]

He's have had a short and too exciting career against capable fighters flown better pilots. His performance over the Britain wasn't stellar.

What world are YOU coming from?

 

[Macandy]

What world are YOU coming from?

The real world - 'Ah but Marsilles was shooting down Spitfire too over North Africa' - Yes, MkV's with the draggy tropical filter that drastically curtailed their performance.
He was a good pilot who found himself in an excellent fighter over a backwater full of less than impressive pilots and planes.

 

[spicmart]

The real world - 'Ah but Marsilles was shooting down Spitfire too over North Africa' - Yes, MkV's with the draggy tropical filter that drastically curtailed their performance.
He was a good pilot who found himself in an excellent fighter over a backwater full of less than impressive pilots and planes.

If the reports of his flying and marksmanship skill are only half true that still would make him exceptional, even if his score tally would have only been 50 % of the real one. It might be all against Spitfires without Vokes filter. Against such machines it would take him more effort to get into position but as his abilities and control over his mount apparently were on top of even other aces one can assume that his victory count would have been high regardless.
According to other aces such as Heinz Bär the only other ace which came close to Marseille in deflection shooting was Günther Rall and that guy scored 275 kills making him the third in the all-time list behind Barkhorn and Hartmann.
The same argument against Marseille can be applied to most Luftwaffe aces who scored so many kills against droves and droves of inferior enemy aircraft on the Eastern front.

BiffF15 : What are close range high aspect ratio shots?

 

[spicmart]

A rather new somewhat tongue-in-cheek two-and-a-half hours two-part video about Hans-Joachim Marseille and his exploits in the air and on the ground.
What do you think of it?
[The Real Life Maverick and WW2's Maddest Lad: Hans Joachim Marseille "The Star of Africa" (Part 1) - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWyfcgyHAKE)
[The Real Life Maverick and WW2's Biggest Chad: Hans Joachim Marseille "The Star of Africa" (Part 2) - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XazS6ANj_C4)

 

[GrauGeist]

Huh...with the Allied air forces in Africa being comprised of worthless aircraft piloted by pedestrian idiots, how is it possible that the Luftwaffe managed to lose so many aircraft and pilots?

I suppose it might be a bit late to mention that the Bf109s in Africa had dust filters, too...

 

[Snautzer01]

The real world - 'Ah but Marsilles was shooting down Spitfire too over North Africa' - Yes, MkV's with the draggy tropical filter that drastically curtailed their performance.
He was a good pilot who found himself in an excellent fighter over a backwater full of less than impressive pilots and planes.

Go

 

[Macandy]

If the reports of his flying and marksmanship skill are only half true that still would make him exceptional, even if his score tally would have only been 50 % of the real one. It might be all against Spitfires without Vokes filter. Against such machines it would take him more effort to get into position but as his abilities and control over his mount apparently were on top of even other aces one can assume that his victory count would have been high regardless.
According to other aces such as Heinz Bär the only other ace which came close to Marseille in deflection shooting was Günther Rall and that guy scored 275 kills making him the third in the all-time list behind Barkhorn and Hartmann.
The same argument against Marseille can be applied to most Luftwaffe aces who scored so many kills against droves and droves of inferior enemy aircraft on the Eastern front.

BiffF15 : What are close range high aspect ratio shots?

I simply don't buy into the cult of the 'experten'. They racked up such high scores for one simple reason, they flew in a front line squadron until they died.
Large numbers of Allied pilots were every bit as good or better, but we didn't stupidly send them to rack up high personal scores until they died. If you were good, you were far more useful iin an OCU passing on those skills. We transferred out pilots after they ran up their allotted flying hours in a front line Squadron to rest and recuperate, and to move them upwards to drive their skills downwards to the next generation. It's notable very few 'experten' where all that expert when facing highly trained pilots in first rate aircraft.

 

[spicmart]

The British fighters were eventually equipped with custom filters which drained a lot less off performance than the Vokes filters.

Macandy. I don't think anyone said that Allied pilots were worse in general. Circumstances caused them to score less kills.

Centreline and cowling armament allow for a better placement of shots.
And Marseille excelled at that even if he had needed twice the 15 to 20 20 mm rounds per kill reported. That would still be excellent.
He landed to check where the rounds hit the enemy fighters and would go to aim at the engine.

 

[BiffF15]

If the reports of his flying and marksmanship skill are only half true that still would make him exceptional, even if his score tally would have only been 50 % of the real one. It might be all against Spitfires without Vokes filter. Against such machines it would take him more effort to get into position but as his abilities and control over his mount apparently were on top of even other aces one can assume that his victory count would have been high regardless.
According to other aces such as Heinz Bär the only other ace which came close to Marseille in deflection shooting was Günther Rall and that guy scored 275 kills making him the third in the all-time list behind Barkhorn and Hartmann.
The same argument against Marseille can be applied to most Luftwaffe aces who scored so many kills against droves and droves of inferior enemy aircraft on the Eastern front.

BiffF15 : What are close range high aspect ratio shots?

Spicmart,

Reference the photo at the bottom of this post.

Aspect is measured from the target aircraft and is your relationship to it. If you are at someones direct 6 o'clock, that is a Zero or Tail aspect. Using the other aircraft as the center of a clock, and every ten 10" off his tail is another aspect angle. At his 3/9 o'clock you are at a 9L or 9R aspect (L or R is which way he is looking out of his cockpit to see you). Nose to nose is a Head on or 18 aspect shot. The USN, and their subsidiary the USMC, does this backwards (yes Wes I'm thinking to you ). They start the 0' at his nose and count up from there with his tail being 180. However if you pass someone going the opposite direction from you, they are 180 degrees off your heading, hence nose to nose is considered a 18 aspect.

If you are directly behind a target, with your fuselages aligned or close to it, is considered low aspect. If you are shooting at a guy from his 9 aspect or greater (3 or 9 o'clock / his heading is 90' off yours or greater) it's considered high. In training we weren't allowed to use the gun at a 13 aspect or greater (risk of collision being too high). High aspect today was called deflection shooting previously.

IIRC I read something about Marseille using his wingman as a training aid, to perfect very close range high aspect shots (my interpretation what I read). He would start out fairly close, do an abrupt turn in (at the wingman) and take a snap shot. It sounded like as he got better he moved closer and closer (minimizing time allowed for the shot prior to maneuvering to avoid a collision). This would be of particular use if you found yourself near a targets beam (8-10 aspect) or less and fairly close (about a turn radius or less away). If you could consistently do this, I would think you will have a unique skill and a bit of an advantage. We actually practiced these in the Eagle.

Macandy,

"I simply don't buy into the cult of the 'experten'. They racked up such high scores for one simple reason, they flew in a front line squadron until they died."

That is one way to look at why their scores were high. It is also for the simple reason they got more practice and they DIDN'T DIE. You get good or you get dead. You have to be alive to get those scores. You have to get into a fight to get a kill. You have to be close enough that your opponent will have an opportunity to kill you. If you ever find yourself on a battlefield, and come across some old guy opponet like Gunny Highway running a platoon, go the other way. And old guy on the killing field knows what the hell he is doing or he wouldn't be there. Trust me, I have shown up to fight an active duty squadron in shiney new jets. I've had the "young and by my standards inexperienced" pilots be disrespectful and condescending, and that was before we stepped to fight. Post flight the debrief was totally uncomfortable for them, as we kicked their collective arses in an inferior plane (on paper). We did it simply due to more experience.

And it was even more enjoyable the bigger an ass your opponent was.

Cheers,
Biff

 

[GrauGeist]

Excellent breakdown, Biff

In regards to the Experten: until the collapse of the luftschule midwar, the Luftwaffe had one of the most detailed and comprehensive flight schools in the world.
The old timers were not immortal, many fell along the way, but these guys were fighting in target rich environments and flying several (or more) sorties per day with few breaks in between.

 

[special ed]

Spicmart,

Reference the photo at the bottom of this post.

Aspect is measured from the target aircraft and is your relationship to it. If you are at someones direct 6 o'clock, that is a Zero or Tail aspect. Using the other aircraft as the center of a clock, and every ten 10" off his tail is another aspect angle. At his 3/9 o'clock you are at a 9L or 9R aspect (L or R is which way he is looking out of his cockpit to see you). Nose to nose is a Head on or 18 aspect shot. The USN, and their subsidiary the USMC, does this backwards (yes Wes I'm thinking to you ). They start the 0' at his nose and count up from there with his tail being 180. However if you pass someone going the opposite direction from you, they are 180 degrees off your heading, hence nose to nose is considered a 18 aspect.

If you are directly behind a target, with your fuselages aligned or close to it, is considered low aspect. If you are shooting at a guy from his 9 aspect or greater (3 or 9 o'clock / his heading is 90' off yours or greater) it's considered high. In training we weren't allowed to use the gun at a 13 aspect or greater (risk of collision being too high). High aspect today was called deflection shooting previously.

IIRC I read something about Marseille using his wingman as a training aid, to perfect very close range high aspect shots (my interpretation what I read). He would start out fairly close, do an abrupt turn in (at the wingman) and take a snap shot. It sounded like as he got better he moved closer and closer (minimizing time allowed for the shot prior to maneuvering to avoid a collision). This would be of particular use if you found yourself near a targets beam (8-10 aspect) or less and fairly close (about a turn radius or less away). If you could consistently do this, I would think you will have a unique skill and a bit of an advantage. We actually practiced these in the Eagle.

Macandy,

"I simply don't buy into the cult of the 'experten'. They racked up such high scores for one simple reason, they flew in a front line squadron until they died."

That is one way to look at why their scores were high. It is also for the simple reason they got more practice and they DIDN'T DIE. You get good or you get dead. You have to be alive to get those scores. You have to get into a fight to get a kill. You have to be close enough that your opponent will have an opportunity to kill you. If you ever find yourself on a battlefield, and come across some old guy opponet like Gunny Highway running a platoon, go the other way. And old guy on the killing field knows what the hell he is doing or he wouldn't be there. Trust me, I have shown up to fight an active duty squadron in shiney new jets. I've had the "young and by my standards inexperienced" pilots be disrespectful and condescending, and that was before we stepped to fight. Post flight the debrief was totally uncomfortable for them, as we kicked their collective arses in an inferior plane (on paper). We did it simply due to more experience.

And it was even more enjoyable the bigger an ass your opponent was.

Cheers,
Biff

I can no longer remember where I read this account. The CO in North Africa, an effort to provide experience to the newly arrived P-51 pilots in their "shiney new planes" ordered the most loud about how their new P-51s were the best in the world, to meet him the next morning. He then proceeded to totally embarrass the new pilot in his new P-51 by completely dominating him with the old Tomahawk kept on base for just that reason.

 

[PAT303]

The British fighters were eventually equipped with custom filters which drained a lot less off performance than the Vokes filters.

Macandy. I don't think anyone said that Allied pilots were worse in general. Circumstances caused them to score less kills.

Centreline and cowling armament allow for a better placement of shots.
And Marseille excelled at that even if he had needed twice the 15 to 20 20 mm rounds per kill reported. That would still be excellent.
He landed to check where the rounds hit the enemy fighters and would go to aim at the engine.

Sounds like Burling, he could explain in detail were his strikes landed.

 

[PAT303]

Spicmart,

Reference the photo at the bottom of this post.

Aspect is measured from the target aircraft and is your relationship to it. If you are at someones direct 6 o'clock, that is a Zero or Tail aspect. Using the other aircraft as the center of a clock, and every ten 10" off his tail is another aspect angle. At his 3/9 o'clock you are at a 9L or 9R aspect (L or R is which way he is looking out of his cockpit to see you). Nose to nose is a Head on or 18 aspect shot. The USN, and their subsidiary the USMC, does this backwards (yes Wes I'm thinking to you ). They start the 0' at his nose and count up from there with his tail being 180. However if you pass someone going the opposite direction from you, they are 180 degrees off your heading, hence nose to nose is considered a 18 aspect.

If you are directly behind a target, with your fuselages aligned or close to it, is considered low aspect. If you are shooting at a guy from his 9 aspect or greater (3 or 9 o'clock / his heading is 90' off yours or greater) it's considered high. In training we weren't allowed to use the gun at a 13 aspect or greater (risk of collision being too high). High aspect today was called deflection shooting previously.

IIRC I read something about Marseille using his wingman as a training aid, to perfect very close range high aspect shots (my interpretation what I read). He would start out fairly close, do an abrupt turn in (at the wingman) and take a snap shot. It sounded like as he got better he moved closer and closer (minimizing time allowed for the shot prior to maneuvering to avoid a collision). This would be of particular use if you found yourself near a targets beam (8-10 aspect) or less and fairly close (about a turn radius or less away). If you could consistently do this, I would think you will have a unique skill and a bit of an advantage. We actually practiced these in the Eagle.

Macandy,

"I simply don't buy into the cult of the 'experten'. They racked up such high scores for one simple reason, they flew in a front line squadron until they died."

That is one way to look at why their scores were high. It is also for the simple reason they got more practice and they DIDN'T DIE. You get good or you get dead. You have to be alive to get those scores. You have to get into a fight to get a kill. You have to be close enough that your opponent will have an opportunity to kill you. If you ever find yourself on a battlefield, and come across some old guy opponet like Gunny Highway running a platoon, go the other way. And old guy on the killing field knows what the hell he is doing or he wouldn't be there. Trust me, I have shown up to fight an active duty squadron in shiney new jets. I've had the "young and by my standards inexperienced" pilots be disrespectful and condescending, and that was before we stepped to fight. Post flight the debrief was totally uncomfortable for them, as we kicked their collective arses in an inferior plane (on paper). We did it simply due to more experience.

And it was even more enjoyable the bigger an ass your opponent was.

Cheers,
Biff

It's awesome having a real fighter pilot on here, if we every run into each other in the air instead of going the other way can I buy you a beer instead haha

 

[BlackSheep]

A while back, I posted an excellent 2-part video on him called Tales of an Uber Chad. Look it up, it's quite good.

 

[BlackSheep]

A rather new somewhat tongue-in-cheek two-and-a-half hours two-part video about Hans-Joachim Marseille and his exploits in the air and on the ground.
What do you think of it?
[The Real Life Maverick and WW2's Maddest Lad: Hans Joachim Marseille "The Star of Africa" (Part 1) - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWyfcgyHAKE)
[The Real Life Maverick and WW2's Biggest Chad: Hans Joachim Marseille "The Star of Africa" (Part 2) - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XazS6ANj_C4)

I liked it and yes it was created in a way to keep a viewers attention.

 

[taly01]

The British Empire had good flying schools in Canada, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand. Its arguable these pilots got more flying training time than British pilots during WW2. They may have been new to combat as all pilots are when they first arrive in operations, but were very competent pilots.

Most P-40's in North Africa were using 60"+ boost by late 1941, at <10,000ft I'd say it not only outturns but is as fast as 109's.

He then proceeded to totally embarrass the new pilot in his new P-51 by completely dominating him with the old Tomahawk kept on base for just that reason.

The Australian P-40 ace Caldwell preferred the Tomahawk over the Kittyhawk, the AVG also preferred their P-40C over the new P-40E's which they prioritised for Fighter Bomber use. I read they kept a stripped down light weight P-40 to embaress new pilots who turned up in their P-38 or P-51's.

 

[Escuadrilla Azul]

AFAIK from books he had exceptional low speed control of the Me109 to change direction radically (which was not meant to be possible to mortals in 109's)

Could Marseille frail body build be a reason for that? The 109 had a very small cockpit and big pilots had problema to maneuovre it.

 

[Escuadrilla Azul]

This is your thread. I have seen the first part and enjoyed it. The narrator & scriptwriter depart a bit from the established and usual tone but, IMO, do a good work. I have no knowledge enough to judge the content

Tale of an Uber Chad

I listened/watched a great YouTube video, today, detailing the exploits of Hans Joachim Marseille, a young German Ace with over 150 kills. What makes this Ace stand out, imo, is that whatever his true number of kills was, he flew against Western pilots and not Russian flight students. Also, out...

ww2aircraft.net

 

[Barrett]

There's a long-finished Marseille movie script, could be a good project especially with today's CGI.
Just FWIW.

Meanwhile: what relatively few understand is the near-cult status that the 109 enjoyed among many high-time pilots. Gunther Call was especially insistent: "We LOVED the 109." Got the impression that some were dragged into 190s with the proverbial door knob in each hand and skid marks on the floor. The really capable pilots could fight in buffet as the leading-edge slats banged in and out. Don't remember who but one Expert wrote that he was never out-turned by a Spit.

However, the 109 certainly was a professional's machine contrary to, say, the Hellcat, which one ace called "A good old man's airplane."

 

[BlackSheep]

Could Marseille frail body build be a reason for that? The 109 had a very small cockpit and big pilots had problema to maneuovre it.

Perhaps, I do know according to the Uber Chad vide, at least, that after dogfighting missions, he'd need help pulling himself out of the cockpit due to the toll it took on his body.. Once, he started building up his core, his flying stamina increased greatly.