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Magister said:FLYBOY,
What is your opinion on fabric vs. aluminum on control surfaces with respect to holding up to heavy machine gun and cannon fire?
FLYBOYJ said:Magister said:FLYBOY,
What is your opinion on fabric vs. aluminum on control surfaces with respect to holding up to heavy machine gun and cannon fire?
When you punch holes in fabric, it will tear, especially at very high speeds (above 250 mph) and especially on a surface where there could be negative aerodynamic pressures (like a control surface). Even if a machine gun or cannon round goes right through fabric covered structure, you'll get the same reults. When the control surface looses enough fabric, it no longer works, you loose control at the axis that control surface "controls."
Metal surfaces, although thin are a lot more resilient. Back in the day metalized control surfaces were made from "24T" aluminum which was really 2024 T3 or T6 depending on the manufacturer. Again, I would believe metalized surfaces would be a hell of a lot more resilient than fabric surfaces unless you had cannon rounds "exploding" on them upon impact, but then again, a well place cannon shell could do the same thing on a fabric covered control surface if the round impacts a more rigid portion of the structure...
Lunatic said:Flyboy, this was one of the speific characteristics of the fabric used on the Corsair wing. It would not tear or shred, similar to todays Tyvex, which will not tear or shred until tremendous force is applied. Try it, go buy a Tyvex envelope and punch or cut two holes in it and stick your fingers in and try to tear it. Even though it is paper thin I would bet you cannot tear it.
And again, the ailerons were wood. The rudder was fabric covered, and I'm not positive what the elevators were made of.
Magister said:What I've been saying is that I have been looking for the admission of the AAF for quite some time now and have never found it. I don't think the Corsair can absorb more damage than the P-47 and keep flying.
Also, I don't believe that fabric was chosen because, "It was secifically done to make the plane more resistant to damage despite the fact that it was harder to maintain than dural sheeting." You know better than that Lunatic.
FLYBOYJ said:here's a list of synthetic fabics used on aircraft....
Dacron® Registered trade name for polyester fibres made by E.I. DuPont de Nemours Company. Poly-Fiber® (and all it's other pseudonyms) is Dacron material.
Ceconite® Registered trade name for a fabric woven from polyester fibres and covering process. Application is with nitrate and butyrate dopes.
Stits Fabric Generic name for a fabric covering process developed by Mr. Ray Stits. Purchased by Poly-Fiber Inc in 1993 and renamed Stits Poly-Fiber.
Poly-Fiber®ii Registered trade name for a fabric woven from polyester fibre. A Poly-Fiber Inc material and process. Application is with Poly-Fiber® products.
Razorback® Registered trade name for a glass fibre fabric and covering process.
Superflite® Registered trade name for a fabric woven from polyester fibres and covering process.
Madapolam A bleached cotton fabric with a soft finish used in covering wooden surfaces. Complies with British Standard (BS) F114.
Lunatic said:The clear reason for its use is to prevent the detonation of cannon rounds, mostly AA cannon rounds, when passing through the wing in this area that has relatively little ribbing or structure.Lunatic
Lunatic said:FLYBOYJ said:here's a list of synthetic fabics used on aircraft....
Dacron® Registered trade name for polyester fibres made by E.I. DuPont de Nemours Company. Poly-Fiber® (and all it's other pseudonyms) is Dacron material.
Ceconite® Registered trade name for a fabric woven from polyester fibres and covering process. Application is with nitrate and butyrate dopes.
Stits Fabric Generic name for a fabric covering process developed by Mr. Ray Stits. Purchased by Poly-Fiber Inc in 1993 and renamed Stits Poly-Fiber.
Poly-Fiber®ii Registered trade name for a fabric woven from polyester fibre. A Poly-Fiber Inc material and process. Application is with Poly-Fiber® products.
Razorback® Registered trade name for a glass fibre fabric and covering process.
Superflite® Registered trade name for a fabric woven from polyester fibres and covering process.
Madapolam A bleached cotton fabric with a soft finish used in covering wooden surfaces. Complies with British Standard (BS) F114.
That's very nice but none of those fabrics are for a WWII Corsair. They are all for civilian aircraft and damage from gunfire is not a serious consideration.
Or buy a new dress and a new wooden leg!Magister said:All this talk of fabric and wood makes me want to build a tent.
Magister said:IMHO, the P-47 appears more structurally sound.
Magister said:The poser of the question knows best but I take it simply as a discussion as to wgich plane could absorbe more damage either by Japanese or German guns.
T-Bolt and Corsair both flew against the Japanese and only the T-Bolt flew against the Germans.
That doesn't mean we can't speculate! Hell, this board is all about speculation and that's the fun of it!
I'm sure the two aircraft are similar in being able to take damage but I come down on the T-Bolt side. (Maybe I'm biased)
All this talk of fabric and wood makes me want to build a tent.
CurzonDax said:In this discussion I am on the Corsair camp. But the argument I have on this, and I might have missed it is that the Corsair never flew against the Luftwaffe where as the 'Bolt flew both against the Luftwaffe and the IJAF and IJN. I guess I don't really have an argument just an observation unless all are saying that a cannon shell is a cannon shell and that, and I am WAY ignorant on this, that Luftwaffe cannons had more hitting power, more muzzle velocity, and more explosive power than those of the Japanese. So if this be true, and again I am just trying to learn here, wouldn't this be a apples and oranges argument since the Corsair was never under Luftwaffe guns.
So therefore again if this is true, its not whether parts of the wings are fabric or not its what and whose cannon and for that matter machine gun, can do the most damage.
I hope I made sense.
:{)
FLYBOYJ said:Lunatic said:FLYBOYJ said:here's a list of synthetic fabics used on aircraft....
Dacron® Registered trade name for polyester fibres made by E.I. DuPont de Nemours Company. Poly-Fiber® (and all it's other pseudonyms) is Dacron material.
Ceconite® Registered trade name for a fabric woven from polyester fibres and covering process. Application is with nitrate and butyrate dopes.
Stits Fabric Generic name for a fabric covering process developed by Mr. Ray Stits. Purchased by Poly-Fiber Inc in 1993 and renamed Stits Poly-Fiber.
Poly-Fiber®ii Registered trade name for a fabric woven from polyester fibre. A Poly-Fiber Inc material and process. Application is with Poly-Fiber® products.
Razorback® Registered trade name for a glass fibre fabric and covering process.
Superflite® Registered trade name for a fabric woven from polyester fibres and covering process.
Madapolam A bleached cotton fabric with a soft finish used in covering wooden surfaces. Complies with British Standard (BS) F114.
That's very nice but none of those fabrics are for a WWII Corsair. They are all for civilian aircraft and damage from gunfire is not a serious consideration.
The point is similar (earlier) materials were used during WW2....
Lunatic said:FLYBOYJ said:Lunatic said:FLYBOYJ said:here's a list of synthetic fabics used on aircraft....
Dacron® Registered trade name for polyester fibres made by E.I. DuPont de Nemours Company. Poly-Fiber® (and all it's other pseudonyms) is Dacron material.
Ceconite® Registered trade name for a fabric woven from polyester fibres and covering process. Application is with nitrate and butyrate dopes.
Stits Fabric Generic name for a fabric covering process developed by Mr. Ray Stits. Purchased by Poly-Fiber Inc in 1993 and renamed Stits Poly-Fiber.
Poly-Fiber®ii Registered trade name for a fabric woven from polyester fibre. A Poly-Fiber Inc material and process. Application is with Poly-Fiber® products.
Razorback® Registered trade name for a glass fibre fabric and covering process.
Superflite® Registered trade name for a fabric woven from polyester fibres and covering process.
Madapolam A bleached cotton fabric with a soft finish used in covering wooden surfaces. Complies with British Standard (BS) F114.
That's very nice but none of those fabrics are for a WWII Corsair. They are all for civilian aircraft and damage from gunfire is not a serious consideration.
The point is similar (earlier) materials were used during WW2....
The point is you cannot compare civilian materials, optimized for weight cost effectiveness, and ease of use, with military materials optimized for combat useage.
Magister said:IMHO, the P-47 appears more structurally sound.