Hawker Hurricane Mk. IIB vs. Grumman F4F-4 Wildcat

[plan_D]

I think your Vichy French kills are a little out there - RL. I say that because I've read in many places that in one combat sortie 15 Hawk-75s were brought down by Wildcats - with a loss of seven Wildcats and Dauntless.

I think the Vichy French kills would be higher than 25, to be honest.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

And it looks like we're still looking at 4 to 1 with the Wildcat vs the Zero.

 

[alejandro_]

R Leonard

Thank you for your message, very interesting. I was somewhat surprised that the USN did not fully compare their kill claims to the actual japanese losses, I guess some of the files were losted or destroyed at the end of the war.

And it looks like we're still looking at 4 to 1 with the Wildcat vs the Zero.

If that is to the Wildcat it is too high in my opinion. During the first 6 months the USN losted quite a few airplanes at the hands of the Zero. The fact that no information was available and the wrong tactics were being applied didn't help the USN crews.

Regards.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

If that is to the Wildcat it is too high in my opinion. During the first 6 months the USN losted quite a few airplanes at the hands of the Zero. The fact that no information was available and the wrong tactics were being applied didn't help the USN crews.

Regards.

What's your defination of "quite a few." As R. Leonard stated "from the USN statistics, there were a total of 178 F4Fs lost in aerial combat ." Face it Alejandro, the US Navy Claimed almost 7 to 1 in favor of the F4F against the Zero, numbers actuallu show more like 4 to 1. At even 3 to 1 the F4F, for being outclassed stomped on the Zero!

 

[alejandro_]

FlyboyJ

At even 3 to 1 the F4F, for being outclassed stomped on the Zero!

But is this for the first 6 month of for a whole year? i am extremely surprised to find such a high ratio, and it has been compared with actual japanese losses...

Regards.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

FlyboyJ

At even 3 to 1 the F4F, for being outclassed stomped on the Zero!

But is this for the first 6 month of for a whole year? i am extremely surprised to find such a high ratio, and it has been compared with actual japanese losses...

Regards.

This is for the whole 4 1/2 years of combat! At Coral Sea, the Zero had about a 2 to 1 kill ratio over the F4f. At Midway the F4F had a 1.5 to 1 kill ratio over the Zero. At Guadalcanal it went to 2.5 to 1. See the links;

http://centurytel.net/midway/appendix/appendixfourteen_usvftac.html

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USMC/USMC-C-Aces/

Bottom line, only 178 F4Fs were lost in combat!

 

[alejandro_]

Thank you very much for the info, FLYBOYJ, that was exactly what I was looking for. I just don't understand how the Zero can be considered one of the greatest fighter in the PTO when it only achieved a 2:1 kill ratio when all the factors were against the Wildcat, and withing one year it had become totally obsolete.

Regards.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Thank you very much for the info, FLYBOYJ, that was exactly what I was looking for. I just don't understand how the Zero can be considered one of the greatest fighter in the PTO when it only achieved a 2:1 kill ratio when all the factors were against the Wildcat, and withing one year it had become totally obsolete.

Regards.

You're quite welcome Alejandro!

 

[R Leonard]

I've revisited the Operation Torch results. There were a total of 26 victories claimed by USN pilots, 25 by F4F pilots and 1 from an SBD pilot.

Looking at just the 25 F4F claims, two of these (a D.520 and either a Martin 167 or LeO.45) were reported in the USS Sangamon (CVE-26) report, but did not specifically identify pilots involved. By the time of the action reported, these victories would have stemmed from Mission A-02, which involved one 6-plane division and one 4-plane division, all catapulted off between 0610 and 0720 in conjunction with Missions A-01 (8 TBFs in two 4-plane divisions) and A-03 (8 SBDs in two 4-plane divisions). The only F4F pilot I show as identified was Lieut. Fitzhugh Lee Palmer, Jr., the F4F mission leader, who submitted a claim for a Martin 167 in action over the Port Lyautey airdrome at approximately 0800. As noted, the other victories claimed, which reportedly occurred in the same action as Palmer's, were not credited to any other particular pilot. The information on the activities of VGF-26 typically does not mention actual pilots, in fact, Palmer is the only F4F driver mentioned by name; in the listings I have only 9 pilots are actually named out of 92 sorties. Anyway, we have Palmer with a M.167 and then the two mystery pilots with the D.520 and the M.167/LeO.45. And just to keep things confusing, VGF-26 had one other unidentified Vichy VF and two other unidentified 2E Vichy VB were reported as probables. Again the VGF-26 pilots are not identified.

There also appears to be a problem over in Ranger's VF-41 on the morning of 8 November in identifying H75As versus D.520s. Across the intervening 63 years we might ask ourselves "how could they not be able to tell the difference?" but I'd suggest that with pilots in their first action, such confusion would be inevitable.

The credited results for aerial combat in F4Fs were:
Lieut.(jg) CV August of VF-41 (USS Ranger) on Nov 8 with 2 H75A
Lieut. MM Furney of VF-41 on Nov 8 with 2 H75A or D520
Lieut.(jg) BN Mayhew of VF-41 on Nov 8 with 2 H75A or D520
Ens. AD Conner, Jr. of VF-41 on Nov 8 with 1 H75A
Ens. W Taylor of VF-41 on Nov 8 with 1 H75A or D520
Lieut. Comdr. CT Booth of VF-41 on Nov 8 with 1 H75A or D520
Lieut. EW Wood, Jr. of VF-41 on Nov 8 with 1 D520
Lieut.(jg) CA Shields of VF-41 on Nov 8 with 1 H75A
Lieut.(jg) CA Shields of VF-41 on Nov 8 with 1 D520
Lieut.(jg) GM Harris of VF-41 on Nov 8 with 1 D520
Lieut. EW Wood, Jr. of VF-41 on Nov 9 with 1 D520 or Me109*
Lieut. Comdr. JA Raby of VF-9 (USS Ranger) on Nov 8 with 1 P63
Ens. LA Menard of VF-9 on Nov 9 with 1 H75A
Ens. MJ Franger of VF-9 on Nov 9 with 1 H75A
Lieut. Comdr. J Raby of VF-9 on Nov 9 with 1 H75A
Lieut. KC Childers, Jr. of VF-9 on Nov 9 with 1 H75A
Lieut.(jg) HE Vita of VF-9 on Nov 9 with 1 H75A
Lieut. LF Palmer, Jr. of VGF-26 (USS Sangamon) on Nov 8 with 1 M167
<Unidentified> of VGF-26 (USS Sangamon) on Nov 8 with 1 M167 or LeO45
<Unidentified> of VGF-26 (USS Sangamon) on Nov 8 with 1 D.520
Ens. BD Jacques of VGF-29 (USS Santee) on Nov 10 with 1 Potez 63
* This may have been a photo-recon Spitfire that failed to return from a mission. There was one Vichy D.520 in the area but the pilot reported no enemy contact. There were no German fighters involved in any of the Torch actions.

The lone SBD victory was a DB-7 scored by Ens. DA Pattie of VGS-29 (USS Santee) on Nov 10.

Probables claimed were:

Lieut. TA Grell of VF-41 - 1 D.520 on Nov 8
Lieut. Comdr JA Raby of VF-9 - 1 H75A on Nov 9
Lieut. KC Childers, Jr. of VF-9 - 1 H75A on Nov 9
Ens LA Menard of VF-9 - 1 H75A on Nov 9
Ens MJ Franger of VF-9 - 1 H75A on Nov 9
<Unidentified> of VGF-26 - Unidentified S/E VF on Nov 8
<Unidentified> of VGF-26 - Unidentified 2/E VB on Nov 8
<Unidentified> of VGF-26 - Unidentified 2/E VB on Nov 8

Combat losses were
- In aerial combat:
OS2U (from USS Massachusetts) - Ens C Dougherty ARM RC Ethridge to H75A, both POW
F4F (VF-41) Ens CE Mikronis to H75A, WIA, POW
F4F (VF-41) Lieut.(jg) CA Shields to H75A, POW
F4F (VF-41) Lieut GH Carter, ditched due to damage from H75A, rescued
F4F (VF-41) Lieut. MT Wordell to H75A, POW

- to AA fire
F4F (VF-9) Lieut.(jg) E Micka, KIA
F4F (VF-9) Ens TM Wilhoite, KIA
F4F (VF-9) Lieut.(jg) SM Amesbury, KIA
F4F (VF-41) Lieut. TA Grell, ditched, AA damage, fuel exhausted, rescued
SBD (VS-41) Ens CE Duffy ARM3c GE Briggs, both KIA
F4F (VF-41) Lieut.(jg) CV August, POW
F4F (VGF-29) Ens WP Naylor, forced landing, POW
TBF (VGS-29) Lieut(jg) DC Rodeen, ARM DE Balkey, AMM3c EP Tarsilla, forced landing, all POW
F4F (VGF-29) Ens RW Peterson, forced landing, POW
F4F (VGF-29) Ens E Van Vranken, forced landing, POW
F4F (VGF-29) Ens UL Fretwell, forced landing, POW
TBF (VGS-27) Lieut(jg) RE O'Neill, AOM3c WS Gorka, AOM3c J Carter, all KIA

- Missing in Action
F4F (VGF-29) Lieut.(jg) GF Trumpeter, Aborted mission with oil leak, MIA

There were also numerous operational losses, takeoff crashes, landing accidents, ditching from fuel exhaustion, or engine failure. I've got all that, but they're not really relevant to the topic.

Some folks involved in this operation. CO of VGF-29 was Tommy Blackburn, later CO of VF-17. TA ("Tag") Grell was one of my father's USNA classmates, we used to go to his annual Army-Navy Game parties. MT ("Mac") Wordell was XO of VF-41; he went on to command VF-44 in the Pacific. CV ("Chuck") August went on with Mac Wordell to VF-44, was shot down in January 1945 over Formosa and taken prisoner, thus becoming one of the very few to be held as a POW by two different belligerents. Wordell also co-wrote "Wildcats over Casablanca" about his squadron, generally, and his adventures, specifically, in this operation. CT ("Tommy") Booth went on to become an Admiral, lived a couple of quarters down the street from us at Norfolk NAS in the early 1960s. MJ ("Marv") Franger was at TacTest with my father in the 1946-1948 period and then later was in VX-3 when my father was XO. Lieut TH ("Hugh") Winters flew with VF-9 and was slightly wounded, went on to command VF-19 in the Pacific; Winters wrote "Skipper - Confessions of a Fighter Squadron Commander, 1943-1944," a fairly straight foreward account of VF-19. Ens. LA ("Lou") Menard later flew in VBF-12 and has the distinction of being the first USN fighter pilot to bring down an enemy plane with a rocket, a deed done in February 1945. Lieut.(jg) DS ("Diz") Laird (VF-41) did not score over North Africa, but later scored 1.5 victories over Luftwaffe snoopers off Norway in Operation Leader; added to his later victories over the Japanese made him the only USN ace with victories over both German and Japanese aircraft. Laird was in VF-171 when my father was CO in the 1948 and the squadron was the Navy's first operational, carrier qualified, jet squadron. Hamilton McWhorter was in VF-9; went to the Pacific to become the first F6F ace. Lieut. John R Sweeny, another of my father's classmates and long time family friend flew for VF-41; he passed along to me pieces of the Zero that crashed into USS Natoma Bay. Another classmates was Lieut. HB ("Brink") Bass, XO of VGF-29, later KIA as CO of VF-74 in Operation Dragoon; Other classmates and long time family friends were Lieut HJ ("Hank") Weiler (VF-41); Lieut. KG ("Cagey") Hammond (VF-41); and Lieut. CV Johnson (VS-41).

Rich

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Interestiong stuff RL! It seems the F4f did well based on this information and all F4F kills were from H75As'. Interesting!

 

[R Leonard]

To answer at least one of the questions that has floated through this thread, I've pulled together some data on
F4F and A6M losses from 1 May 1942 through the Battle of Midway. I have not included USN vs IJN encounters
prior to 7 May 1942 as the USN F4F pilots did not encounter the A6M until the Battle of the Coral Sea where VF-42's
Walt Haas was the first USN fighter pilot to shoot down an A6M.

F4F Combat Losses 7 May 1942 through 4 June 1942:
(Format is Ship -- Squadron -- Date -- Number -- Cause)
CV-2 -- VF-2 -- 5/7/1942 -- 1 -- MIA Coral Sea Night Action/Operations
CV-5 -- VF-42 -- 5/7/1942 -- 2 -- MIA Coral Sea Night Action/Operations
CV-2 -- VF-2 -- 5/8/1942 -- 3 -- MIA Coral Sea probably shot down by A6M2s
CV-2 -- VF-2 -- 5/8/1942 -- 2 -- shot down by A6M2 US strike CAP
CV-5 -- VF-42 -- 5/8/1942 -- 1 -- forced down, battle damage by A6M2, US force CAP
CV-5 -- VF-3 -- 6/4/1942 -- 3 -- shot down by A6M2 US force CAP
CV-5 -- VF-3 -- 6/4/1942 -- 1 -- shot down by A6M2 US strike CAP
CV-5 -- VF-3 -- 6/4/1942 -- 1 -- forced down, battle damage by A6M2, US force CAP
CV-8 -- VF-8 -- 6/4/1942 -- 1 -- shot down by A6M2 (possible assist from friendly AA fire), US force CAP

So, we can see that there were a total of 15 F4Fs lost in combat. Of the first three, MIA in Coral Sea night action/
operations, we know that the one VF-2 loss, Lieut(jg) Paul Baker, and one of the VF-42 losses, Ens John Baker,
(these gents were not related, but their identical last names may have contributed to their loss, a short but sad
story of communications problems) were tragically just pilots who were lost in the dark and could not find their
ways back to their ships. The other VF-42 loss, Ens Leslie Knox, simply was never heard from again and no
specific cause can be pinned to his loss, although one of the last survivors of VF-42 still with us tells me that they
all suspected that the cause of his loss was vertigo, not enemy action. Thus, we are left with 12 F4Fs actually
shot down or forced down from damage by A6Ms. In the same period, there were 24 F4Fs lost operationally.
10 of these were the VF-8 strike CAP at Midway, all of which ditched from fuel exhaustion; seven pilots, I believe,
were recovered.

Japanese A6M losses in the same period were;
(Format is Ship -- Date -- Number -- Cause)

Shoho -- 5/7/1942 -- 1 -- shot down F4F strike CAP (VF-42)
Shokaku -- 5/8/1942 -- 2 -- shot down F4F force CAP (VF-42)
Akagi -- 6/4/1942 -- 3 -- shot down, various strike aircraft (non VF)
Akagi -- 6/4/1942 -- 1 -- AA fire Midway Island
Hiryu -- 6/4/1942 -- 3 -- shot down F4F force CAP (VF-3)
Hiryu -- 6/4/1942 -- 3 -- shot down SBD strike force
Hiryu -- 6/4/1942 -- 2 -- shot down, various strike aircraft (non VF)
Hiryu -- 6/4/1942 -- 1 -- forced down, battle damage SBD
Hiryu -- 6/4/1942 -- 1 -- forced down, battle damage SBD
Hiryu -- 6/4/1942 -- 1 -- shot down F4F force CAP (VF-3)
Hiryu -- 6/4/1942 -- 1 -- shot down F4F force CAP (VF-6)
Kaga -- 6/4/1942 -- 5 -- shot down F4F strike CAP (VF-3)
Kaga -- 6/4/1942 -- 1 -- shot down F4F (VMF 221 - land-based)
Soryu -- 6/4/1942 -- 3 -- shot down, various strike aircraft (non VF)

So, we see 28 A6Ms lost in combat. Fourteen, half, were shot down by F4Fs; one by AA fire; five either shot down
out-right by SBDs or lost due to battle damage from same; and eight were lost to defensive fires from various
other strike aircraft at Midway (TBD, SB2U, TBF, B-26). In the same time period there were 21 operational losses,
all from fuel exhaustion; seven were at Coral Sea, the balance at Midway.

Bottom line here is that between 7 May 1942 and 4 June 1942, and, thus, just on the basis of exposure, in the first
six months of the Pacific War, there were 12 F4Fs shot down by A6Ms and 14 A6Ms shot down by F4Fs, or an F4F
victory to loss ratio of 1.167 to 1.

I think, though, we need to be careful with some of the numbers ascribed to the F4F. There is a big, big boost to the
ratio of Wildcat claims to losses that stems from the F4Fs direct follow-on, the FM-2. The performance of the FM-2
was such that the USN considered its combat results separately from those of the F4F. There is, however, a
tendency to lump the two together as "Wildcat Results". This tends to skew the statistics and can lead to,
perhaps, some erroneous conclusions. Further, I would point out that, as with the BuAer bean counters, amongst
the practitioners, those who flew both the F4F and the FM-2, the two were also considered to be different breeds of
cat (pun intended) that simply had a similar appearance.

In it's brief time in combat, the FM-2 posted some pretty serious numbers. Perusing the US Naval Aviation
Combat Statistics – World War II (1946), if you look at the period 1 January 1944 through 15 August 1945,
operating FM-2 squadrons in aerial combat against the Japanese resulted in 422 credits of all aircraft types to 13
losses. During these 20 months FM-2 squadrons flew some 751 aerial combat sorties (combat sorties defined
as flights where aircraft of a given element - division or section - engaged in combat with enemy forces). This
works out to 3.29 sorties for every Japanese VF shot down and 3.87 sorties for every Japanese VT/VB or
overall 1.78 sorties for every Japanese aircraft credited. The FM-2 aerial combat losses work out to 57.8 aerial
combat sorties for every FM-2 lost. Losses to AA fire for FM-2s in the same period were 62 for some 5533
sorties with Japanese AA present, or 89 sorties encountering Japanese AA for every AA loss.

Comparatively in the same period, F6F squadrons flew 6397 aerial combat sorties with 1.3 aerial combat
sorties per credit and 27 aerial combat sorties per loss. F6F losses to AA fire were 527 in the course of some
38,427 combat sorties in the same period where Japanese AA was present, or 73 sorties for every AA loss.
For F4U squadrons there were 1.7 aerial combat sorties per credit and 26 aerial combat sorties per loss for around
2495 combat sorties. AA losses for F4Us were 331 for 24,058 combat sorties facing AA fire, as with the F6F,
some 79 sorties encountering Japanese AA for every AA loss.

From 1 January 1945 to the Japanese surrender, operating FM-2 squadrons were credited with 187 victories
(94 VF and 93 VT/VB) to 1, (yes, he said "one") aerial combat loss. Remember, of course, that a high number
of these credits were scored against some rather single minded adversaries who really weren't paying
much attention to the niceties of aerial combat, focusing primarily on just getting through the CAP defenses to work
their mischief on whatever ship to which they could get the closest. Combat sorties per credit were 1.9 and
combat sorties per losses were 362.

And finally, if you look at just the last year of the Pacific war, from 1 September 1944 to 15 August 1945, FM-2s
in action in aerial combat against Japanese VF only, the results were, credits to losses:

FM-2 vs A6M series - 87 to 2
FM-2 vs Ki-43 - 38 to 3
FM-2 vs Ki-61 - 29 to none
FM-2 vs Ki-44 - 17 to 2
FM-2 vs J2M 1 to none
FM-2 vs Ki-27 - 1 to none
FM-2 vs unidentified S/E VF types - 10 to none
This totals out to 183 Japanese VF types credited for 7 losses (26.1 to 1).

Interestingly enough, another quick calculation from these results tell us that since FM-2 pilots were credited with
94 Japanese VF victories from 1 Jan 1945 to the end of the war and 183 Japanese VF victories from 1 Sept 1944
to the end of the war, the period of 1 Sept 1944 through 31 Dec 1944 was prolific indeed with 89 VF credits over a
four month period, though theses were not without a cost. With 6 FM-2 losses, the credit to loss ratio in the same
four months drops to a paltry 14.8 to 1.

Other results for the 1 September 1944 though 15 August 1945 period were:

FM-2 vs D3A - 88 to none
FM-2 vs D4Y - 5 to none
FM-2 vs B5N - 4 to none
FM-2 vs B6N - 7 to none
FM-2 vs Ki-51 - 1 to none
FM-2 vs Total VB-VT - 105 to none

FM-2 vs E13 - 7 to none
FM-2 vs Total F/P - 7 to none

FM-2 vs G4M - 2 to none
FM-2 vs Ki-46 - 1 to none
FM-2 vs P1Y - 18 to none
FM-2 vs J1N - 9 to none
FM-2 vs Ki-45 - 4 to none
FM-2 vs Ki-21 - 16 to none
FM-2 vs Ki-48 - 21 to 1
FM-2 vs G3M - 1 to none
FM-2 vs U/I 2/E Combat Types - 9 to none
FM-2 vs Total 2/E Combat Types - 81 to 1

FM-2 vs Transports - 1 to none
FM-2 vs unidentified 2/E - none to 1
Total FM-2 vs Non-S/E VF Types - 194 to 1

Total for all FM victories, 1 September 1944 through 15 August 1945 is 377 to 9 or a ratio of 41.9 to 1.

And a review of the squadron ACA reports gives us the following claims posted for the FM-2 for their entire wartime
combat service. By squadrons (format is Squadron -- Ship -- Credits -- Probable -- Damaged)

VC-27 -- CVE-78 -- 59.5 -- 1.0 -- 6.0
VF-26 -- CVE-29 -- 31.0 -- 2.0 -- 0.0
VOC-1 -- CVE-65 -- 20.0 -- 1.0 -- 0.0
VC-81 -- CVE-62 -- 19.0 -- 0.0 -- 2.0
VC-84 -- CVE-93 -- 19.0 -- 0.0 -- 2.0
VC-20 -- CVE-76 -- 18.0 -- 2.0 -- 2.0
VC-75 -- CVE-79 -- 18.0 -- 4.0 -- 0.0
VC-10 -- CVE-73 -- 17.0 -- 3.0 -- 3.0
VC-21 -- CVE-77 -- 17.0 -- 1.0 -- 0.0
VC-3 -- CVE-68 -- 17.0 -- 2.0 -- 1.0
VC-93 -- CVE-84 -- 17.0 -- 1.0 -- 0.0
VC-5 -- CVE-71 -- 16.0 -- 3.0 -- 6.0
VC-80 -- CVE-61 -- 14.0 -- 2.0 -- 0.0
VC-88 -- CVE-82 -- 14.0 -- 0.0 -- 3.0
VC-4 -- CVE-66 -- 12.0 -- 0.0 -- 0.0
VC-33 -- CVE-57 -- 11.0 -- 7.0 -- 1.0
VC-68 -- CVE-70 -- 10.0 -- 0.0 -- 0.0
VC-41 -- CVE-58 -- 9.0 -- 3.0 -- 1.0
VC-85 -- CVE-94 -- 9.0 -- 1.0 -- 0.0
VC-13 -- CVE-57 -- 8.0 -- 2.0 -- 1.0
VC-92 -- CVE-72 -- 8.0 -- 0.0 -- 3.0
VC-90 -- CVE-87 -- 7.0 -- 0.0 -- 0.0
VC-94 -- CVE-84 -- 7.0 -- 0.0 -- 0.0
VC-97 -- CVE-91 -- 7.0 -- 0.0 -- 1.0
VC-91 -- CVE-93 -- 6.0 -- 0.0 -- 1.0
VC-96 -- CVE-81 -- 6.0 -- 0.0 -- 0.0
VC-87 -- CVE-96 -- 6.0 -- 0.0 -- 0.0
VC-65 -- CVE-63 -- 5.0 -- 2.0 -- 0.5
VOC-2 -- CVE-70 -- 5.0 -- 0.0 -- 0.0
VC-76 -- CVE-80 -- 4.0 -- 1.0 -- 0.0
VC-78 -- CVE-82 -- 4.0 -- 0.0 -- 0.0
VC-83 -- CVE-83 -- 2.0 -- 0.0 -- 0.0
VC-11 -- CVE-74 -- 1.0 -- 0.0 -- 0.0
VC-63 -- CVE-62 -- 1.0 -- 0.0 -- 0.0
VC-66 -- CVE-70 -- 1.0 -- 0.0 -- 0.0
VC-86 -- CVE-95 -- 1.0 -- 0.0 -- 0.0
*VC-?? -- unknown -- 1.5 -- 0.0 -- 0.0*
Total -- - -- - -- - - 428.0 -- 38.0 -- 33.5
*These come from reported assists by unidentified FM-2s resulting in partial credits

And by Japanese types: (Type -- Credit -- Probable -- Damaged)

A6M -- 102.0 -- 5.0 -- 8.0
D3A -- 93.5 -- 5.0 -- 1.0
Ki-43 -- 43.5 -- 7.0 -- 6.0
Ki-61 -- 36.0 -- 2.0 -- 3.0
Ki-21 -- 21.0 -- 2.0 -- 2.0
P1Y1 -- 21.0 -- 0.0 -- 6.0
Ki-48 -- 21.0 -- 4.0 -- 1.0
Ki-44 -- 20.0 -- 3.0 -- 1.0
B6N1-2 -- 14.0 -- 0.0 -- 1.0
J1N -- 10.0 -- 5.0 -- 1.0
E13A -- 9.0 -- 0.0 -- 0.0
B5N -- 8.0 -- 1.0 -- 1.5
D4Y1 -- 8.0 -- 0.0 -- 0.0
G4M -- 7.0 -- 0.0 -- 1.0
Ki-45 -- 5.0 -- 3.0 -- 1.0
Ki-46 -- 2.0 -- 0.0 -- 0.0
U/I 2/E VT -- 2.0 -- 0.0 -- 0.0
G3M -- 1.0 -- 0.0 -- 0.0
J2M -- 1.0 -- 0.0 -- 0.0
Ki-57 -- 1.0 -- 0.0 -- 0.0
Ki-51 -- 1.0 -- 0.0 -- 0.0
Ki-27 -- 1.0 -- 0.0 -- 0.0
Total -- 428.0 -- 37.0 -- 33.5

Overall, the F4F was credited with a 5.1 to 1 credit to loss ratio (905 to 178). The FM-2 posted a 32.9 to 1 ratio (428
to 13). Together, which some sometimes present, but which is technically incorrect, they form the "Wildcat Ratio" of
7.0 to 1 (1333 to 191).

Regards,

Rich

 

[plan_D]

This is what I have on Operation Torch just to see if it's correct -

USN provided 164 aircraft alongside "some" P-40Es from the USAAF. Opposing them were 205 aircraft of the Vichy French of which 78 were fighters. Vichy French formations were GC I/5, GC II/5 and Aéronavale Flotille 3F. The fighters fielded were 38 D.520 and 40 H-75s (all in the same colours).

On 8th November six Hawks from GC II/5 Lafayette scrambled from Camp Cazes to meet Wildcats (F4F-3?) from VF-41 (?). They caught a OS2U Kingfisher and shot it down.

VF-41 caught one flight of Hawks taking off and seven Hawk pilots were killed (two lost in a collision during take-off) and four more wounded. The French shot down two Wildcats but had lost 13 Hawks.

During 8th November GC II/5 claimed seven F4Fs destroyed - ID failure could mean some were SBD-3s.

On the 9th GC II/5 took off with five Hawks which strafed the landing craft on the beaches. GC I/5 escorted a force of bombers attacking the beaches, they were caught by Wildcats of VF-9 who shot down four Hawks on the first pass! One of those lost was French ace Adj Chef Georges.

GC I/5 claimed one victory on the 9th - a Wildcat from VF-9 piloted by Ens Gerhardt - the pilot of the Hawk was Sgt Chef Jeremie Bressieux.

This last one is odd because your records don't even mention an Ensign Gerhardt.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The lone SBD victory was a DB-7 scored by Ens. DA Pattie of VGS-29 (USS Santee) on Nov 10.

Now that would of been a site to see!

 

[R Leonard]

I Show:
CV-4 USS Ranger:
CRAG: 1 TBF-1
VF-9: 27 F4F-4
VF-41: 27 F4F-4
VS-41: 18 SBD-3
and 3 USAAF L-4

ACV-26 USS Sangamon:
VGF-26: 12 F4F-4
VGS-26: 9 SBD-3, 9 TBF-1

ACV-27 USS Suwannee:
VGF-27: 11 F4F-4
VGS-27: 9 TBF-1
VGF-28: 12 F4F-4
VGS-30: 6 F4F-4

ACV-29 USS Santee:
VGF-29: 14 F4F-4
VGS-29: 9 SBD-3, 8 TBF-1

Total USN by Type:
F4F-4: 109
SBD: 36
TBF-1: 27
Total: 172

also

ACV-28 USS Chenango
P40-F: 76 (in transport)

Vichy Air Units
GC II/5 at Casablanca: 20 H75 and 13 D.520
GB I/32 at Cazes: 13 DB-7
GT II/15 at Cazes: 15 Various a/c
GC I/5 at Rabat-Sale: 26 H75
GR I/22 at Rabat-Sale: 13 LeO451
GT I/15 at Rabat-Sale: 16 Various a/c
Flo 1F at Port Lyautey: 27 D.520
Flo 3F at Port Lyautey: 11 M.167
GB II/23 at Meknes: 13 LeO 451
GR I/52 at Marrakech: 13 P.63
GB I/23 at Marrakech: 13 LeO 451
Flo 3F at Agadir: 2 M.167
GB Il/32 at Agadir: 13 DB-7

Totals by Type
H75: 46
D.520: 40
DB-7: 26
M.167: 13
LeO 451: 39
P.63 : 13
Misc: 31
Total: 208


I show Ensign Charles W. Gerhardt, A-V(N), USNR (O-114669) on mission B-02, 9 November, in F4F-4
b/n 11707, side # 9-F-8, ditching at sea due to an oil leak and being rescued by USS Mayrant
(DD-402). My sources do not show that the leak resulted from combat damage, however, if your
information so indicates I am happy to accept that and so note.

Mission B-02 was a launched at 0730 as a fighter sweep in the Fedala area and consisted of two
4-plane divisions led by Lieut Comdr Jack Raby. First division was Raby, Ens. MJ Franger, Lieut.(jg)
H. Feasley, and Ens. AE Martin. Second division was Lt. KC Childers, Jr, Ens. LA Menard, Jr., Lt.(jg)
HE Vita, and Gerhardt. They engaged an estimated 16 H75As at approximately 0815. Reported
results were: Raby – 1/1/0, Franger – 1/1/0, Feasley – 0/0/0, Martin – 0/0/0, Childers – 1/1/0, Menard
– 1/1/0, Vita – 1/0/0, and Gerhardt – 0/0/0; total 5/4/0. I believe the actual results were 4/4/0. Upon
return to the ship, Menard crashed on landing into the barrier and then hit the island, but the plane was
repairable. All except Gearhardt were back aboard by 0900.

Regards,

Rich

 

[alejandro_]

R Leonard

Those were excellent posts, let me ask a couple of things if you don't mind.

F4F losses at Coral should be these:

CV-2 -- VF-2 -- 5/7/1942 -- 1 -- MIA Coral Sea Night Action/Operations
CV-5 -- VF-42 -- 5/7/1942 -- 2 -- MIA Coral Sea Night Action/Operations
CV-2 -- VF-2 -- 5/8/1942 -- 3 -- MIA Coral Sea probably shot down by A6M2s
CV-2 -- VF-2 -- 5/8/1942 -- 2 -- shot down by A6M2 US strike CAP
CV-5 -- VF-42 -- 5/8/1942 -- 1 -- forced down, battle damage by A6M2, US force CAP

F4F losses at Midway should be:

CV-5 -- VF-3 -- 6/4/1942 -- 3 -- shot down by A6M2 US force CAP
CV-5 -- VF-3 -- 6/4/1942 -- 1 -- shot down by A6M2 US strike CAP
CV-5 -- VF-3 -- 6/4/1942 -- 1 -- forced down, battle damage by A6M2, US force CAP
CV-8 -- VF-8 -- 6/4/1942 -- 1 -- shot down by A6M2 (possible assist from friendly AA fire), US force CAP

Zero losses in Coral:

Shoho -- 5/7/1942 -- 1 -- shot down F4F strike CAP (VF-42)
Shokaku -- 5/8/1942 -- 2 -- shot down F4F force CAP (VF-42)

Zero losses in Midway:

Akagi -- 6/4/1942 -- 3 -- shot down, various strike aircraft (non VF)
Akagi -- 6/4/1942 -- 1 -- AA fire Midway Island
Hiryu -- 6/4/1942 -- 3 -- shot down F4F force CAP (VF-3)
Hiryu -- 6/4/1942 -- 3 -- shot down SBD strike force
Hiryu -- 6/4/1942 -- 2 -- shot down, various strike aircraft (non VF)
Hiryu -- 6/4/1942 -- 1 -- forced down, battle damage SBD
Hiryu -- 6/4/1942 -- 1 -- forced down, battle damage SBD
Hiryu -- 6/4/1942 -- 1 -- shot down F4F force CAP (VF-3)
Hiryu -- 6/4/1942 -- 1 -- shot down F4F force CAP (VF-6)
Kaga -- 6/4/1942 -- 5 -- shot down F4F strike CAP (VF-3)
Kaga -- 6/4/1942 -- 1 -- shot down F4F (VMF 221 - land-based)
Soryu -- 6/4/1942 -- 3 -- shot down, various strike aircraft (non VF)

By the way, in the dates the first digit correspons to the month,and the second to the day right?

So, Zero vs Wildcat kill to loss ratios :

Coral: 9 vs 3 3:1 in favour of Zero (if all Wildcat losses attributed to the Zero).
Midway: 6 vs 11 1.83:1 in favour of the Wildcat.

Regards.

 

[R Leonard]

By the way, in the dates the first digit correspons to the month,and the second to the day right?

So, Zero vs Wildcat kill to loss ratios :

Coral: 9 vs 3 3:1 in favour of Zero (if all Wildcat losses attributed to the Zero).
Midway: 6 vs 11 1.83:1 in favour of the Wildcat.

Looks like three questions, so three answers: Yes, No, and Yes

Yes, date format is month/day/year

No, F4F losses to A6Ms at Coral Sea were 6 to 3 or 2:1. The three MIA on the night of 7 May did not result from VF vs VF action as noted in my post. Further, the three MIA F4Fs on 8 May are presumed to have been lost to A6Ms. Japanese VF vs VF claims for the action on 8 May were 36 F4Fs. They must have been shooting at somebody, so it is probably a safe bet that they did, indeed, get the 3 missing F4Fs on the 8th.

Yes, at Midway, 6 F4Fs were lost in exchange for 11 A6Ms.

Rich

 

[plan_D]

Excellent information on Torch, RL. I'll have to update my notes on that then! Brilliant, thanks! 8)

There is one hiccup though, RL, I think - you've noted 26 kills during Torch, yet you've only listed 25.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

After reading all this on the F4F it has certainly changed my mind about this little airplane. It seems she did a lot better than many giver her credit for and she certainly was not blasted out of the skies in early WW2 as another member suggested in another post.

The later models serving into the end of the war just proves the versatility of this great plane!

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

i wouldn't really call the F4F that versatile..........

 

[FLYBOYJ]

i wouldn't really call the F4F that versatile..........

Fleet fighter, night fighter, ground attack, land-based fighter bomber (used by the Marines) - used through-out the war even though considered obsolete - if that's not versatile, I dont know what is