the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
them roles don't make it versatile, almost any fighter can, with the addition of bombs, be a figher bomber, and it doesn't need much to be a recon aircraft...........
Hawker Hurricane Mk. IIB vs. Grumman F4F-4 Wildcat
- Thread starter DAVIDICUS
- Start date
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
And if it carried a gland-slam?
Just another F4F note....
In early 1941, Grumman began work on an ultra-long-range photo-reconnaissance version of the Wildcat. An F4F-4 was extensively modified to this configuration, with nonfolding "wet" wings and distinctive twin "tailpipes" that were actually used for dumping excess fuel to lighten the aircraft for carrier deck landings. A single camera was installed behind the cockpit, an autopilot was fitted for long missions, and the armament and gunsight were deleted. The first such "F4F-7" performed its first flight on 30 December 1941.
The F4F-7 could carry a load of 2,596 liters (685 gallons) of fuel, giving the type a range of 5,950 kilometers (3,700 miles). A hundred were ordered but only 21 were delivered. In 1942, one flew across the US, coast to coast nonstop, in eleven hours. When the flight plan was filed, an Army air traffic controller called the Navy and said it looked as though there was a mistake. A Navy man replied: "The flight plan is correct. All Navy fighters have a 3,000 mile range." This was a record flight, but the F4F-7 was a secret and the record wasn't claimed.
The F4F-7s served in the Solomons but the actual need for an extremely long range reconnaissance fighter was slight. Those F4F-7s that were delivered were used for spares hulks, with some possibly modified back to a fighter specification.
There were trials in which Wildcats were towed by bombers such as the B-17 to give them longer range. These experiments were said to have worked out fairly well from a technical point of view but the scheme did not go into service.
From: http://www.vectorsite.net/avwcat.html
Just another F4F note....
In early 1941, Grumman began work on an ultra-long-range photo-reconnaissance version of the Wildcat. An F4F-4 was extensively modified to this configuration, with nonfolding "wet" wings and distinctive twin "tailpipes" that were actually used for dumping excess fuel to lighten the aircraft for carrier deck landings. A single camera was installed behind the cockpit, an autopilot was fitted for long missions, and the armament and gunsight were deleted. The first such "F4F-7" performed its first flight on 30 December 1941.
The F4F-7 could carry a load of 2,596 liters (685 gallons) of fuel, giving the type a range of 5,950 kilometers (3,700 miles). A hundred were ordered but only 21 were delivered. In 1942, one flew across the US, coast to coast nonstop, in eleven hours. When the flight plan was filed, an Army air traffic controller called the Navy and said it looked as though there was a mistake. A Navy man replied: "The flight plan is correct. All Navy fighters have a 3,000 mile range." This was a record flight, but the F4F-7 was a secret and the record wasn't claimed.
The F4F-7s served in the Solomons but the actual need for an extremely long range reconnaissance fighter was slight. Those F4F-7s that were delivered were used for spares hulks, with some possibly modified back to a fighter specification.
There were trials in which Wildcats were towed by bombers such as the B-17 to give them longer range. These experiments were said to have worked out fairly well from a technical point of view but the scheme did not go into service.
From: http://www.vectorsite.net/avwcat.html
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
that's quite a feat, but that doesn't make her versatile........
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Ok- that's it - She's going into "Pimp my ride." We'll see what Versitle is! 
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
Nonskimmer
Captain
*sigh*
You guys are hopeless.
You guys are hopeless.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
mosquitoman
Master Sergeant
If I wanted to shoot something down, I'd take the Hurricane
If I wanted to not get shot down I'd take the Wildcat
If I wanted to not get shot down I'd take the Wildcat
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
mosquitoman said:
Ok - the games begin - 173 Wildcats were lost in combat. 548 Hurricanes were lost in the BOB alone. Hurricane was a good aircraft, I'd take my chances in a Wildcat.
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/gustin_military/strength.html
The Hurricane was largely out-numbered during the Battle of Britain and German aircraft were actually good. And they were Hurricane I in the BoB, not IIB.
That's something a lot of people forget about the Battle of Britain, the numbers. When people rant about how the Luftwaffe was only beaten by superior numbers; the RAF had to deal with the same situation as the Luftwaffe. RAF interceptors were going up against formations 10-20 times their own size!
No one could ever call the Spitfire or Hurricane poor planes due to those high losses because they were severely out-numbered, but I know some people still do.
That's something a lot of people forget about the Battle of Britain, the numbers. When people rant about how the Luftwaffe was only beaten by superior numbers; the RAF had to deal with the same situation as the Luftwaffe. RAF interceptors were going up against formations 10-20 times their own size!
No one could ever call the Spitfire or Hurricane poor planes due to those high losses because they were severely out-numbered, but I know some people still do.
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
yes to base your argument on loss figures for the most numerous british plane in the largest air battle of all time stikes me as a bit stupid.........
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Good point D - I'll go on to say that the Hurricane was some advantages over the F4F - Speed, manuevability and firepower. I think the Wildcat was more rugged, could absorb more damage, had a range advantage, and was more reliable with its radial engine
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
But as for Mr. Mossie - I used to think about the F4F in the same light, well based on this thread, I'm a believer! \/
/
wmaxt
Staff Sergeant
FLYBOYJ said:But as for Mr. Mossie - I used to think about the F4F in the same light, well based on this thread, I'm a believer! \
I'll agree too, if were talking a Hurricane with 20mm guns, otherwise I think I'll go with the Wildcat and it's .50s.
I think the P-40 Hawk series in the same light as the Wildcat/Hurricane none of these aircraft got the credit they deserved for their workhorse duties in the war. Their work allowed the flashier planes shine.
wmaxt
Jabberwocky
Staff Sergeant
Just to add some fuel to the fire, the Hurricane and the Wildcat actually carried out a mock dogfight in July, 1943.
Both sets of pilots had completed combat tours and the fight took place in England.
This is also shamelessly stolen from the IL2 Sturmovik forums, where the discussion was rehashed in much the same way (for about 10 pages). I know its plagurism of the worst sort, but hey, it helps with the discussion, right?
All the Fine Young Eagles by David L. Bashow
ISBN; 0-7737-2976-3
Page 248-9.
After a few rounds from the bar, a discussion developed regarding the merits of the Wildcat versus the Hurricane. It continued until the American issued a challenge they would have four Wildcats at Torbay the following morning. The tactics were simple. Four pairs, each consisting of a Wildcat and a Hurricane, would meet at an agreed upon altitude, in each of the four quadrants of the sky, North. West. South and East of the airport. They would meet, fly in formation for a minute or two, then break up and approach each other head on. From then on it was a straight dogfight, with each pilot trying to get on the other fellow's tail. Flight Commanders were not allowed to fly on either side. We were part of the large audience assembled on the ground to see the show. Everything went according to plan. The aircraft met, flew in formation for a minute or two, and then began dog fighting. In a couple of minutes there were four Hurricanes on the tails of four Wildcats, and they stayed there, to great applause and shouts from the audience below.
After landing, everyone adjourned to the hangar to hash over the situation. The Americans seemed completely nonplused by the turn of events. They could not understand how things could have turned out the way they had. It must have been some kind of aberration that could never happen again, so they issued another challenge for the following afternoon. This time, they announced. Flight Commanders could fly, so I decided to get in on the fun in Hurricane 5485. That afternoon the two readiness aircraft: equipped with depth charges**, were sitting on the tarmac. "Butch" Washburn and "Gibby" Gibbs were the readiness pilots that day and Butch said to me. "You know Bill, I think we can take on these buggers with those readiness aircraft." "Why not?" I replied ... "Have a go." We lined up a fourth pilot and the exercise was carried out all over again with four Hurricanes on the tails of four Wildcats once again. Butch Washburn was so keen that he stayed on the Wildcat's tail until it landed on the runway. The Americans were forced to admit that the Hurricane was the better aircraft. Even when it was ladened with depth charges. We had a party in the Mess that night with the Americans becoming more generous and more lavish with their praise as the evening wore on. According to some of them, if 128 Squadron, complete with aircraft and personnel. could suddenly be transported to the Pacific Theater, we would make short work of the Japanese Air Force. Yes, it was a great party ...
**OK so before you jump all over me that Hurricanes can't carry depth charges it was a local improvisation.
From the same book page. 245-46;
Flying at Torbay took on an operational atmosphere. The Cansos and Venturas were almost constantly on patrol, and they occasionally returned to base after encountering a German Submarine. These attacks bolstered everyone's morale.
Shortly after we reached Torbay, someone in our armament section devised a way to make bomb racks out of the angle iron used in the double bunks so familiar to all service personnel. The racks were okayed by Eastern Air Command Headquarters in Halifax, and for the rest of the time at Torbay we were able to carry a depth charge under each wing. Four of our Hurricanes were fitted with these racks, and two aircraft were kept on constant readiness. Also, with twelve machine guns on each aircraft, the Hurricanes constituted a very formidable weapon against an enemy submarine.
A British Major, an armament expert, arrived about this time from London. The purpose of his visit was to discuss with aircrew the latest tactics of German submarines. Instead of diving immediately on seeing a patrol aircraft, the subs were now armed with deck guns and were shooting back. Several patrol aircraft had been shot down. All available crew from the three Torbay squadrons were called together for a talk by the Major, who spent most of his time raving about the Hurricanes armed with depth charges that he had seen on the flight line. "In all my travels to squadrons around the worId," he said, "I have never seen such a deadly combination. The Number One aircraft could clear the deck of all living things with one burst from his twelve machine guns, and Number Two could drop his depth charges at leisure. It's marvelous!" After his talks, the Major visited our Squadron and talked with the pilots. He left an Air Ministry address with Squadron Leader Cannon, the CO, and made him promise to forward to him the results of any encounters a Hurricane might have with a German submarine. "No matter where I am in the world, I'll get the message." There was no message to pass on to the Major for two reasons. Firstly, we never did get to attack a German sub, and secondly, the same day as his visit, a Canso carrying the Major to Botwood, Newfoundland, crashed while landing on glassy water, killing everyone on board, including the Major."
So what does this mock combat prove?
Almost nothing.
It proves that on that day with those pilots in those specific planes that the Hurricane pilots won. That's all it proves. It doesn't prove that the USN pilots were inferior or that the Hurricane was superior. It means that on that day they got beat. That's all, its anecdotal.
Both sets of pilots had completed combat tours and the fight took place in England.
This is also shamelessly stolen from the IL2 Sturmovik forums, where the discussion was rehashed in much the same way (for about 10 pages). I know its plagurism of the worst sort, but hey, it helps with the discussion, right?
All the Fine Young Eagles by David L. Bashow
ISBN; 0-7737-2976-3
Page 248-9.
After a few rounds from the bar, a discussion developed regarding the merits of the Wildcat versus the Hurricane. It continued until the American issued a challenge they would have four Wildcats at Torbay the following morning. The tactics were simple. Four pairs, each consisting of a Wildcat and a Hurricane, would meet at an agreed upon altitude, in each of the four quadrants of the sky, North. West. South and East of the airport. They would meet, fly in formation for a minute or two, then break up and approach each other head on. From then on it was a straight dogfight, with each pilot trying to get on the other fellow's tail. Flight Commanders were not allowed to fly on either side. We were part of the large audience assembled on the ground to see the show. Everything went according to plan. The aircraft met, flew in formation for a minute or two, and then began dog fighting. In a couple of minutes there were four Hurricanes on the tails of four Wildcats, and they stayed there, to great applause and shouts from the audience below.
After landing, everyone adjourned to the hangar to hash over the situation. The Americans seemed completely nonplused by the turn of events. They could not understand how things could have turned out the way they had. It must have been some kind of aberration that could never happen again, so they issued another challenge for the following afternoon. This time, they announced. Flight Commanders could fly, so I decided to get in on the fun in Hurricane 5485. That afternoon the two readiness aircraft: equipped with depth charges**, were sitting on the tarmac. "Butch" Washburn and "Gibby" Gibbs were the readiness pilots that day and Butch said to me. "You know Bill, I think we can take on these buggers with those readiness aircraft." "Why not?" I replied ... "Have a go." We lined up a fourth pilot and the exercise was carried out all over again with four Hurricanes on the tails of four Wildcats once again. Butch Washburn was so keen that he stayed on the Wildcat's tail until it landed on the runway. The Americans were forced to admit that the Hurricane was the better aircraft. Even when it was ladened with depth charges. We had a party in the Mess that night with the Americans becoming more generous and more lavish with their praise as the evening wore on. According to some of them, if 128 Squadron, complete with aircraft and personnel. could suddenly be transported to the Pacific Theater, we would make short work of the Japanese Air Force. Yes, it was a great party ...
**OK so before you jump all over me that Hurricanes can't carry depth charges it was a local improvisation.
From the same book page. 245-46;
Flying at Torbay took on an operational atmosphere. The Cansos and Venturas were almost constantly on patrol, and they occasionally returned to base after encountering a German Submarine. These attacks bolstered everyone's morale.
Shortly after we reached Torbay, someone in our armament section devised a way to make bomb racks out of the angle iron used in the double bunks so familiar to all service personnel. The racks were okayed by Eastern Air Command Headquarters in Halifax, and for the rest of the time at Torbay we were able to carry a depth charge under each wing. Four of our Hurricanes were fitted with these racks, and two aircraft were kept on constant readiness. Also, with twelve machine guns on each aircraft, the Hurricanes constituted a very formidable weapon against an enemy submarine.
A British Major, an armament expert, arrived about this time from London. The purpose of his visit was to discuss with aircrew the latest tactics of German submarines. Instead of diving immediately on seeing a patrol aircraft, the subs were now armed with deck guns and were shooting back. Several patrol aircraft had been shot down. All available crew from the three Torbay squadrons were called together for a talk by the Major, who spent most of his time raving about the Hurricanes armed with depth charges that he had seen on the flight line. "In all my travels to squadrons around the worId," he said, "I have never seen such a deadly combination. The Number One aircraft could clear the deck of all living things with one burst from his twelve machine guns, and Number Two could drop his depth charges at leisure. It's marvelous!" After his talks, the Major visited our Squadron and talked with the pilots. He left an Air Ministry address with Squadron Leader Cannon, the CO, and made him promise to forward to him the results of any encounters a Hurricane might have with a German submarine. "No matter where I am in the world, I'll get the message." There was no message to pass on to the Major for two reasons. Firstly, we never did get to attack a German sub, and secondly, the same day as his visit, a Canso carrying the Major to Botwood, Newfoundland, crashed while landing on glassy water, killing everyone on board, including the Major."
So what does this mock combat prove?
Almost nothing.
It proves that on that day with those pilots in those specific planes that the Hurricane pilots won. That's all it proves. It doesn't prove that the USN pilots were inferior or that the Hurricane was superior. It means that on that day they got beat. That's all, its anecdotal.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Good Stuff! I used to live close to Edwards AFB in California, I worked at Mojave Airport, about 30 miles to the north. During WW2 Edwards (then called Muroc) was a huge AAF base. Mojave was a Marine base. In 1943 there was a P-38 training squadron at Muroc and an F4F squadron at Mojave. Legend has it that these guys would battle it out over the windy skies of the "Antelope Valley" and sometimes the Wildcats won over the P-38s! 
Yeah, I'd still pick a Wildcat over a Hurricane, especially one of the early wooden-prop ones used at the start of the BoB.
Aside from cannon equipped jobs, it'd probably take a few hits and you could outdive the living hell out of 'em. In head to head squadron combat, I'm guessing you're going to take a few hits no matter what you're in.
Aside from cannon equipped jobs, it'd probably take a few hits and you could outdive the living hell out of 'em. In head to head squadron combat, I'm guessing you're going to take a few hits no matter what you're in.
Users who are viewing this thread
Similar threads
