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They tried it and apparently weren't impressed with the results, so it wasn't something that they pursued on a large scale.We've been over this before, but the turbocharged DB 603 arrangements really weren't worthwhile, the added weight and drag made for worse performance at most useful altitudes and the turbocharger added cost and complexity (assuming it could even be produced reliably).
Pretty dang close - about 115 between V1 (1936) and V115 (1945) compared to the He111 that had only 47: V1 (1934) through V47 (1943)I think they had almost an entire air force of prototypes for the Ju 88.
Does anyone know what a DB 601 powered Fw 190 would've looked like? Were there any calculations done, or is this just a made up possibility by this board?
Just have to find it ...
Are there any "best guesses" on what the performance of this bird would look like? Also, was there any large differences between the DB 601M and DB 601N?
It was also developed with a DB601 engine and was offered to the Dutch airforce in that shape. Prototype V10 indeed had a DB601A engine.The Bf 109 certainly successfully made the tansition from Jumo to DB. Why not the He 112?
It IS unlikely given the cost difference, but it could have been done. I'm zeroing in on the original question about the development potential. I still think it HAD potential, but am NOT sure when the supply of DB 601s would have been sufficient for the Germans to release some for use in developed He 112s.
The development might be tied to surplus DB 601s that could have been used. In that case, time might have already marched past the point where the DB engine would have give the developed He 112 airframe sufficient useful performance to warrant the effort.
So development, while possible, might never have been practical from an engine availability standpoint. Still, they found sufficient engines for Bf 110's, so maybe there was some potential there.
The He 112 could take the Jumo 211 engine, an alternative to the DB601. The wing was thick only relative to the spitfire and since twin 20mm guns could be carried in the fuselage sides there was no need to burden the wing with armament. The wings should thus have a substantial fuel capacity. Compressibility effects are minimal, a few kmh.
The Jumo 211 might be an option. Let's recall that it was wider than DB 601, little bit heavier, and the Daimler offered more power in general. Couple all of this with thicker wing and the aircraft lags behind the mid war Bf 109, ie. it is in the league of P-40, Yaks and Spitfire I.
Twin 20 mm guns in fuselage is a non-starter, especially if we consider bigger Jumo 211 or DB 601 in the nose. The MG FF cannot fire synchronized, the MG 151 is too big. The real He 112 carried MG FF in the wings, alternatively the MG C was firing through the prop.
He 112 already carried fuel between the fuselage and U/C attachment point. In self sealing tanks or not? In front of the spar is space for the U/C, so we're left with space outboard of that.
The He 112 with two fuselage mounted and synchronised 20mm guns is not theory but fact. At least one was built and flown in combat during the Spanish civil war. It was with Jumo 210 not Jumo 211 engine.
By 1942 the Jumo 211F was no bigger or heavier than the DB605A yet produced the same power. The more powerful 1450hp DB601N might have been available sooner than the 1.42ATA DB605A had it been emphasised. These engines were abandoned from the production program as the Jumo 213 offered more promise but had the He 112 been a customer the Jumo 211N might have been developed, perhaps with MW50.
The He 112 would have offered twin 20mm guns, a clear view bubble canopy. All of this makes it superior to the Me 109. Although the Luftwaffe wanted a metal wing a wooden wing (similar to that of the He 70) would have been possible. Ernst Heinkel wanted this for the prototypes at least.
Hi Marcel,
Thanks for that.
I'll have to look that one up. The only reason I never pursued it was it never made quantity production, so I figured it was dead end, development-wise ... but if they DID make a DB 601-powered He 112, I'm interested in the performance versus the competition, if for nothing else, then for comparison's sake alone. Wiki, that most reliable of sources, says it went 350 mph and the climb improved "significantly." I can imagine. Perhaps we could find some real-world numbers somewhere in the form of a flight test report.
I'm in the crowd that thinks the He 112 had potential, and making a thinner section wing was one option. It certainly would NOT have helped the cost, but could have been done. I find it quite appealing that the He 112 was basically a scaled-down He70 Blitz and was made into a fighter prototype. You certainly can't accuse Ernst Heinkel of not trying, can you?
The "potential" thing is ripe for practical argument/discussion. You can probably "fix" the faults of MOST airplanes. The real question is, "is it economically feasible to do so?" A fully "tweaked" He 112 might have been a really great prototype with performance to spare ... and the RLM still might not have bought it, so you have to decide if the potential investment is worth the risk. I've always wondered why none of Germany's allies bought it in quantity, and there is likely a good reason, potential development notwithstanding. They apparently built 104 of them, which would not be profitable.
The Bf 109 was ripe with faults but, for all it's faults, was a VERY good offensive attack fighter that was fairly cheap to make given the level of performance it achieved ... which was near or at the top of the field. It is quite possible the DB-powered He 112 had every bit of the performance of the Bf 109 at a greater cost, and never got a big order simply due to the price difference. Or ... it may have NOT had the performance the Bf 109 had, and was STILL more expensive.
It could be some of our German members may know the real reason behind the He 112 not making it. If so, please chime in here guys ... or gals. This could have been one of the great fighters of the war, but never made it in the real world. Before anybody chimes in with it, the same could be said of many more than just the He 112 for sure.
For instance, I think the AR 240 had potential, and it was fast enough that if Arado couldn't fix the stability, I bet a rival firm could have and then the Germans would have HAD their "Mosquito" or at least close to it ... but it never happened for real.
You have to appreciate/marvel the potential that went untapped in the German aircraft industry ranging from the Me 264 to the Fw 191 to the AR 240 and so on down a long list of "might-have-beens" up to and including the BV 155 high-altitude version of the Bf 109. The potential was amazing in a lot of cases.
So why did the Germans put a Peugeot engine in the Mini Cooper? No wait, that's another forum ...
I will politely ask you to provide the source that He 112 was ever outfitted with two 20 mm guns, mounted in fuselage.
I know that He 112 flew in combat with Jumo 210 only, the bigger heavier engine makes installation of heavier weapons in the nose a tougher task.
The 30 min power of the DB 605A was 1250 PS (1.3 ata, 2600 rpm) at 5.8 km, vs. the 30 min power of Jumo 211F with 1060 PS (1.25 ata, 2400 rpm) at 5.3 km. Already the DB 601E was ahead of Jumo 211F, in power, size and weight. What Jumo 211F have had was take off power (+40 PS, prior late 1943), not terribly important for a fighter.
By '1450 HP DB 601N' you mean the Jumo 211N? Lets recall that the engine troubles downed three Ta 154 prototypes. What ever we add to the Jumo 211 series, the DB was always a bit ahead.
The MG FF was fitted in wings, that does not mean that MG 151 will fit on same place.