He 112 Development Potential

[kool kitty89]

Wouldn't that 'rugged' design philosophy just put it in line with most (or all) operational American fighters during the war (including the Mustang)? Granted, that would inevitably have meant increasing the wing area over what the V1 prototype initially used, mostly likely to similar dimensions the A-1 and late A-0 variants used but with lower overall weight.


And SpicyJuan, the best alternate engine (of those actually in production) might have been the Jumo 211F. It was available sooner than the DB 601E and had better all-around performance than the 601N while using B4 fuel. If the 1 minute limit could have been successfully extended to a full 5 minute fighter emergency rating (remember this was historically a bomber engine) it would have had fairly competitive power to the DB 601E but at slightly lower critical altitudes or significantly better power while the 601E remained restricted. The larger/heavier 190 airframe also might have benefited enough from the added power and altitude performance the intercooled 211J offered to make the added drag worthwhile. (I forget the exact dates, but I believe the 211J was in production before the DB 605A -otherwise the 605A would have been more attractive performance wise, but perhaps not in terms of ruggedness and reliability)

The Fw 190C would still be a better heavy-fighter/interceptor 190 derivative, had the RLM allocated DB 603A engines for that project. (it isn't something that should have been affected one way or the other by the 211 vs 801 powered 190)

We've been over this before, but the turbocharged DB 603 arrangements really weren't worthwhile, the added weight and drag made for worse performance at most useful altitudes and the turbocharger added cost and complexity (assuming it could even be produced reliably).

 

[GrauGeist]

We've been over this before, but the turbocharged DB 603 arrangements really weren't worthwhile, the added weight and drag made for worse performance at most useful altitudes and the turbocharger added cost and complexity (assuming it could even be produced reliably).

They tried it and apparently weren't impressed with the results, so it wasn't something that they pursued on a large scale.

In the larger picture, we can see that a great deal of time, money, labor and material went into exploring alternatives for the Fw190. This holds true with the Bf109 and other production types. So on the one hand, the He112 could have been upgraded or enhanced but on the otherhand, how many prototypes would it take to hit on the right combination?

Look at the time consumed in trying to salvage the Me210 when it should have been shelved and either go back to the drawing board or move on to the next, more promising type. There were over 24 prototypes of the Me210 that spanned 4 years: V1 1939 - V24 1943. While this may be seen as the natural course of development for a type, it is a huge setback during wartime, especially when things aren't going well for the Fatherland.

And just in case anyone's wondering, there were over 80 prototypes for the Fw190...

 

[GregP]

I think they had almost an entire air force of prototypes for the Ju 88.

 

[GrauGeist]

I think they had almost an entire air force of prototypes for the Ju 88.

Pretty dang close - about 115 between V1 (1936) and V115 (1945) compared to the He111 that had only 47: V1 (1934) through V47 (1943)

 

[bobbysocks]

Does anyone know what a DB 601 powered Fw 190 would've looked like? Were there any calculations done, or is this just a made up possibility by this board?

I would imagine it would resemble a 190D....I see GG beat me to it....

 

[GregP]

You know Graugeist, 115 prototypes is more than the delivered production run of Ta 152's. At's alotta' prototypes!

It must have done some good, though, as the Ju 88 was a fine aircraft. Maybe a slew of prototypes is the real secret to getting it right ... naaahhhhh, couldn't be that simple.

 

[Shortround6]

An awful lot of them were actually armament trials aircraft or testbeds for different model engines or even research aircraft for later projects.

 

[GrauGeist]

If you go over the records, you start to see alot of prototypes suddenly drop off the record after 1943. Actually it was really evident from 1944 onward.

So when a prototype was destroyed in a bombing raid, they pretty much had to start from square one.

 

[tomo pauk]

Just have to find it ...

The data sheet (one better copy, another not so good) for the Bf-109F4: Beim-Zeugmeister: Page 12 - Company data Messerschmitt, part 3

The Vmax is stated at 670 km/h at 6.3 km, with engine providing 1290 PS at that altitude (as Denniss said, there is suspicion that compressibility was not taken in account). Take off power is 1350 PS, ie. the engine is fully rated. The Cd for high speed is stated at 0.023.

Are there any "best guesses" on what the performance of this bird would look like? Also, was there any large differences between the DB 601M and DB 601N?

The DB 601M should be the DB 601A modified for evaporative cooling. The 601N gives more power at all altitudes. As for estimates - the Fw 190A-1/A-2 was supposed to do 630-640 km/h with 1310 PS at ~5000 m. The DB 601N will give 1175 PS, at a little bigger altitude (5500 m with ram?), the 10% deficit in power should be compensated with smaller drag and weight vs. the BMW in the nose. The performance at lower level will be suffering mostly, the difference in power is too big (~35%).
With DB powered Fw 190, it is more of a question 'what LW will gain', rather than 'would it be hot as Bf 109F'. The gain will be longer range for better usability (or less fuel used for same range), capacity for easier upgrade of firepower (with gondola cannons all of the Bf 109 advantage goes through the window), better reliability than BMW powered Fw 190 so it can be easier used on distant theaters, rate of roll, visibility/situational awareness, ruggedness. The Jabo Fw 190 with DB will probably not be as good with BMW (less power down low). Performance advantage vs. Allied aircraft will still be marked, though the climb vs. Spit V might suffer, ditto the all around performance at lower levels.

 

[drgondog]

Good fighter relative to what? based on what existing attributes for what primary mission?

If for general purpose, speed and range and firepower

If for point interceptor, speed and climb and firepower

If for escort, Range and speed

 

[tomo pauk]

Quirk with He 112 is that it was a small fighter. Stick the Db 601/605, increase fuel tankage for some 70-80 liters (~ 400 L total) and there is an almost Bf 109, capability-vise. Plus is probably pilot compartment, along with wider undercarriage, minus is a thicker wing ( more drag, so less speed on same power). Once the Bf 109F is in town, the He 112 does not seem to offer much?

 

[Koopernic]

The He 112 could take the Jumo 211 engine, an alternative to the DB601. The wing was thick only relative to the spitfire and since twin 20mm guns could be carried in the fuselage sides there was no need to burden the wing with armament. The wings should thus have a substantial fuel capacity. Compressibility effects are minimal, a few kmh.

 

[Marcel]

The Bf 109 certainly successfully made the tansition from Jumo to DB. Why not the He 112?

It IS unlikely given the cost difference, but it could have been done. I'm zeroing in on the original question about the development potential. I still think it HAD potential, but am NOT sure when the supply of DB 601s would have been sufficient for the Germans to release some for use in developed He 112s.

The development might be tied to surplus DB 601s that could have been used. In that case, time might have already marched past the point where the DB engine would have give the developed He 112 airframe sufficient useful performance to warrant the effort.

So development, while possible, might never have been practical from an engine availability standpoint. Still, they found sufficient engines for Bf 110's, so maybe there was some potential there.

It was also developed with a DB601 engine and was offered to the Dutch airforce in that shape. Prototype V10 indeed had a DB601A engine.

 

[GregP]

Hi Marcel,

Thanks for that.

I'll have to look that one up. The only reason I never pursued it was it never made quantity production, so I figured it was dead end, development-wise ... but if they DID make a DB 601-powered He 112, I'm interested in the performance versus the competition, if for nothing else, than for comparison's sake alone. Wiki, that most reliable of sources, says it went 350 mph and the climb improved "significantly." I can imagine. Perhaps we could find some real-world numbers somewhere in the form of a flight test report.

I'm in the crowd that thinks the He 112 had potential, and making a thinner section wing was one option. It certainly would NOT have helped the cost, but could have been done. I find it quite appealing that the He 112 was basically a scaled-down He70 Blitz and was made into a fighter prototype. You certainly can't accuse Ernst Heinkel of not trying, can you?

The "potential" thing is ripe for practical argument/discussion. You can probably "fix" the faults of MOST airplanes. The real question is, "is it economically feasible to do so?" A fully "tweaked" He 112 might have been a really great prototype with performance to spare ... and the RLM still might not have bought it, so you have to decide if the potential investment is worth the risk. I've always wondered why none of Germany's allies bought it in quantity, and there is likely a good reason, potential development notwithstanding. They apparently built 104 of them, which would not be profitable.

The Bf 109 was ripe with faults but, for all it's faults, was a VERY good offensive attack fighter that was fairly cheap to make given the level of performance it achieved ... which was near or at the top of the field. It is quite possible the DB-powered He 112 had every bit of the performance of the Bf 109 at a greater cost, and never got a big order simply due to the price difference. Or ... it may have NOT had the performance the Bf 109 had, and was STILL more expensive.

It could be some of our German members may know the real reason behind the He 112 not making it. If so, please chime in here guys ... or gals. This could have been one of the great fighters of the war, but never made it in the real world. Before anybody chimes in with it, the same could be said of many more than just the He 112 for sure.

For instance, I think the AR 240 had potential, and it was fast enough that if Arado couldn't fix the stability, I bet a rival firm could have and then the Germans would have HAD their "Mosquito" or at least close to it ... but it never happened for real.

You have to appreciate/marvel the potential that went untapped in the German aircraft industry ranging from the Me 264 to the Fw 191 to the AR 240 and so on down a long list of "might-have-beens" up to and including the BV 155 high-altitude version of the Bf 109. The potential was amazing in a lot of cases.

So why did the Germans put a Peugeot engine in the Mini Cooper? No wait, that's another forum ...

 

[tomo pauk]

The He 112 could take the Jumo 211 engine, an alternative to the DB601. The wing was thick only relative to the spitfire and since twin 20mm guns could be carried in the fuselage sides there was no need to burden the wing with armament. The wings should thus have a substantial fuel capacity. Compressibility effects are minimal, a few kmh.

The Jumo 211 might be an option. Let's recall that it was wider than DB 601, little bit heavier, and the Daimler offered more power in general. Couple all of this with thicker wing and the aircraft lags behind the mid war Bf 109, ie. it is in the league of P-40, Yaks and Spitfire I.
Twin 20 mm guns in fuselage is a non-starter, especially if we consider bigger Jumo 211 or DB 601 in the nose. The MG FF cannot fire synchronized, the MG 151 is too big. The real He 112 carried MG FF in the wings, alternatively the MG C was firing through the prop.
He 112 already carried fuel between the fuselage and U/C attachment point. In self sealing tanks or not? In front of the spar is space for the U/C, so we're left with space outboard of that.

 

[Koopernic]

The Jumo 211 might be an option. Let's recall that it was wider than DB 601, little bit heavier, and the Daimler offered more power in general. Couple all of this with thicker wing and the aircraft lags behind the mid war Bf 109, ie. it is in the league of P-40, Yaks and Spitfire I.
Twin 20 mm guns in fuselage is a non-starter, especially if we consider bigger Jumo 211 or DB 601 in the nose. The MG FF cannot fire synchronized, the MG 151 is too big. The real He 112 carried MG FF in the wings, alternatively the MG C was firing through the prop.
He 112 already carried fuel between the fuselage and U/C attachment point. In self sealing tanks or not? In front of the spar is space for the U/C, so we're left with space outboard of that.

The He 112 with two fuselage mounted and synchronised 20mm guns is not theory but fact. At least one was built and flown in combat during the Spanish civil war. It was with Jumo 210 not Jumo 211 engine.

By 1942 the Jumo 211F was no bigger or heavier than the DB605A yet produced the same power. The more powerful 1450hp DB601N might have been available sooner than the 1.42ATA DB605A had it been emphasised. These engines were abandoned from the production program as the Jumo 213 offered more promise but had the He 112 been a customer the Jumo 211N might have been developed, perhaps with MW50.

The He 112 would have offered twin 20mm guns, a clear view bubble canopy. All of this makes it superior to the Me 109. Although the Luftwaffe wanted a metal wing a wooden wing (similar to that of the He 70) would have been possible. Ernst Heinkel wanted this for the prototypes at least.

 

[tomo pauk]

The He 112 with two fuselage mounted and synchronised 20mm guns is not theory but fact. At least one was built and flown in combat during the Spanish civil war. It was with Jumo 210 not Jumo 211 engine.

I will politely ask you to provide the source that He 112 was ever outfitted with two 20 mm guns, mounted in fuselage.
I know that He 112 flew in combat with Jumo 210 only, the bigger heavier engine makes installation of heavier weapons in the nose a tougher task.

By 1942 the Jumo 211F was no bigger or heavier than the DB605A yet produced the same power. The more powerful 1450hp DB601N might have been available sooner than the 1.42ATA DB605A had it been emphasised. These engines were abandoned from the production program as the Jumo 213 offered more promise but had the He 112 been a customer the Jumo 211N might have been developed, perhaps with MW50.

The 30 min power of the DB 605A was 1250 PS (1.3 ata, 2600 rpm) at 5.8 km, vs. the 30 min power of Jumo 211F with 1060 PS (1.25 ata, 2400 rpm) at 5.3 km. Already the DB 601E was ahead of Jumo 211F, in power, size and weight. What Jumo 211F have had was take off power (+40 PS, prior late 1943), not terribly important for a fighter.

By '1450 HP DB 601N' you mean the Jumo 211N? Lets recall that the engine troubles downed three Ta 154 prototypes. What ever we add to the Jumo 211 series, the DB was always a bit ahead.

The He 112 would have offered twin 20mm guns, a clear view bubble canopy. All of this makes it superior to the Me 109. Although the Luftwaffe wanted a metal wing a wooden wing (similar to that of the He 70) would have been possible. Ernst Heinkel wanted this for the prototypes at least.

The MG FF was fitted in wings, that does not mean that MG 151 will fit on same place.

 

[Marcel]

Hi Marcel,

Thanks for that.

I'll have to look that one up. The only reason I never pursued it was it never made quantity production, so I figured it was dead end, development-wise ... but if they DID make a DB 601-powered He 112, I'm interested in the performance versus the competition, if for nothing else, then for comparison's sake alone. Wiki, that most reliable of sources, says it went 350 mph and the climb improved "significantly." I can imagine. Perhaps we could find some real-world numbers somewhere in the form of a flight test report.

I'm in the crowd that thinks the He 112 had potential, and making a thinner section wing was one option. It certainly would NOT have helped the cost, but could have been done. I find it quite appealing that the He 112 was basically a scaled-down He70 Blitz and was made into a fighter prototype. You certainly can't accuse Ernst Heinkel of not trying, can you?

The "potential" thing is ripe for practical argument/discussion. You can probably "fix" the faults of MOST airplanes. The real question is, "is it economically feasible to do so?" A fully "tweaked" He 112 might have been a really great prototype with performance to spare ... and the RLM still might not have bought it, so you have to decide if the potential investment is worth the risk. I've always wondered why none of Germany's allies bought it in quantity, and there is likely a good reason, potential development notwithstanding. They apparently built 104 of them, which would not be profitable.

The Bf 109 was ripe with faults but, for all it's faults, was a VERY good offensive attack fighter that was fairly cheap to make given the level of performance it achieved ... which was near or at the top of the field. It is quite possible the DB-powered He 112 had every bit of the performance of the Bf 109 at a greater cost, and never got a big order simply due to the price difference. Or ... it may have NOT had the performance the Bf 109 had, and was STILL more expensive.

It could be some of our German members may know the real reason behind the He 112 not making it. If so, please chime in here guys ... or gals. This could have been one of the great fighters of the war, but never made it in the real world. Before anybody chimes in with it, the same could be said of many more than just the He 112 for sure.

For instance, I think the AR 240 had potential, and it was fast enough that if Arado couldn't fix the stability, I bet a rival firm could have and then the Germans would have HAD their "Mosquito" or at least close to it ... but it never happened for real.

You have to appreciate/marvel the potential that went untapped in the German aircraft industry ranging from the Me 264 to the Fw 191 to the AR 240 and so on down a long list of "might-have-beens" up to and including the BV 155 high-altitude version of the Bf 109. The potential was amazing in a lot of cases.

So why did the Germans put a Peugeot engine in the Mini Cooper? No wait, that's another forum ...

I'll try and see if I can find some figures that Heinkel sent to the Dutch government. They must have done so as they were a real candidate to sell the fighter to the LVA. I know that the V9 prototype has been tested here, abeit with the Jumo engine. I whish our government had bought that machine, because, even with a Jumo engine, the He112 was superior to our main fighter, the Fokker D.XXI. Would have been interesing as well, to see how the He112 would perform against it's main rival the Bf109.

As for the He112 not making it in Germany, I guess the main reason was that it took some time for the He112 to develop into a modern fighter. Only when V9 came out, one could speak of a truely high standard fighter for the time, while the Bf109 had already done that months before that. So the mind was already set way before that time to the Bf109. Even V9 had no decisive advantages over the Bf109, so the opinions could not significantly be changed. I wonder what would have happened if V9 would have been directly developed instead of only after many other, more old fashioned prototypes. It would have been on par with the Bf109 from the beginning.

Later in the war, it made much more sense to make a second fighter with a different engine. So the Fw190 had more chance. In fact, Udet told Heinkel exactly that when doing the record flight with the He100.

 

[GregP]

Hi Marcel,

When I look at the offerings that might have been available, the DB-engined He 112 is near the top. I'm not too sure of the British would have sold the Spitfire at that particular time or if the Germans would have sold the Bf 109 at that particular time either since both nations were busy equipping themselves with the new warplanes. The DB-engined He 112 was probably one of the best bets, had it been available in quantity.

Had the Dutch wanted to buy Merlins and fit them to the He 112 thmselves, I'm not sure they were available for foreign purchase. Likewise the Allison V-1710, even though it was a medium-altitude engine as built without the turbo, also might not have been available in quantity at the time you wanted them.

So the best bet was likely either the DB-equipped He 112 or the P-36 / P-40, and I do NOT yet know how the DB-engined He 112 stacked up against the P-36/P-40. We DO know the P-40 gave a decent if not wonderful account of itself versus the early Bf 109s. It did OK in North Africa. It wasn't a Bf 109 but also wasn't hoplessly outclassed in all departments.

I think the Fokkers were good, but not in the same class as the Bf 109 and Spitfire. They were, more properly, in the early-to-mid-1930's class, without the same potential for development the Bf 109 and Spitfire had ... barring a complete redesign. Had it been redesigned, it would not have been the same Fokker.

It would be nice to see a D.XXI fly today ...

 

[rinkol]

I will politely ask you to provide the source that He 112 was ever outfitted with two 20 mm guns, mounted in fuselage.
I know that He 112 flew in combat with Jumo 210 only, the bigger heavier engine makes installation of heavier weapons in the nose a tougher task.



The 30 min power of the DB 605A was 1250 PS (1.3 ata, 2600 rpm) at 5.8 km, vs. the 30 min power of Jumo 211F with 1060 PS (1.25 ata, 2400 rpm) at 5.3 km. Already the DB 601E was ahead of Jumo 211F, in power, size and weight. What Jumo 211F have had was take off power (+40 PS, prior late 1943), not terribly important for a fighter.

By '1450 HP DB 601N' you mean the Jumo 211N? Lets recall that the engine troubles downed three Ta 154 prototypes. What ever we add to the Jumo 211 series, the DB was always a bit ahead.


The MG FF was fitted in wings, that does not mean that MG 151 will fit on same place.

I think one of the Jumo engined He 112s had an engine mounted MG C/30 L; this machine was trialed in Spain with some success in the ground attack role.