Hellcat vs Spitfire - which would you take?

[DonL]

The engines, radios and guns were usually furnished by the government AKA "GFE." They might not haven been included in that price.

That makes sense compare to the prices of the posted list, because the production numbers of P 40, P 51 and F6F are very close with the P-51 and P 40 in the lead.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

That makes sense compare to the prices of the posted list, because the production number of P 40, P 51 and F6F are very close with P 51 and P 40 in the lead.

It also depends what equipment was ordered and what other requirements were placed in the contract - two different branches of the US Armed Forces were ordering aircraft to their specifications. Things like paint, tires, radios and even test reports on some of the material purchased to manufacture the aircraft are also considered in the cost.

 

[drgondog]

I agree DonL's point and your answer Joe. I don't believe the F6F cost the USN $35K including all GFE. Usually the price for an a/c in serial production during WWII seemed to be close to a function of weight when compared with other a/c in its class.

I don't know the answer but I would be hugely surprised if the F6F was less than the P-51, and would believe it to be closer to P-47 (and F4U)...

 

[VBF-13]

Unit cost $35,000 in 1945

Ferguson, Robert G. "One Thousand Planes a Day: Ford, Grumman, General Motors and the Arsenal of Democracy." History and Technology, Volume 21, Issue 2, 2005.

pp. 149–175

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_F6F_Hellcat#Bibliography

"During the war, he [Grumman] bargained hard with suppliers to bring the cost of the Hellcat from $50,000 down to $35,000. Fortune magazine said that Grumman produced more pounds of airframe for the taxpayer's dollar than any other aircraft company."

Joe and all, meet the man:

Aviation Inventor Leroy Grumman He Bucked Convention To Make Better Airplanes - Investors.com

 

[parsifal]

It might be time to come up for air and look at the unit cost of a Spitfire for comparison.

I have two general references that may be of some interest. In 1939 the estonians ordered 12 Spitfires from Britain at a contract (delivered) cost of 12500 pounds per copy. I dont know what the exchange rate for pounds to dollars was in 1939, but for years it about 2:1. if correct, that makes the delivery cost of a Spit in 1939 as about $25000 per copy

Another newspaer clipping relating to Churchills 66th Birthday talks about a present from the NEI govt to Britain for 7 Spits at a roll out of the factory price of 5000 pounds.

The best source i found is at the end of this link

diary

If you add up the cost elements, the price comes to 8850 pounds for a fully functional Spitfire in 1940. Thats about $17698


This raises an interesting and a bit cheeky question......disregarding the cost of the pilot and support elements.....which is more effective.....1 Hellcat, or 1.98 Spits.......Would you lose 2 Spits for every 1 Hellcat given an equal situation.....

For reference, wiki records an Me 109G-6 Unit cost at 42,900 RM
(G-6, Erla-Werke, 1943), which is roughly $21000 (but not comparable to the 1940 costs)



Ive got no real opinion on this, but was curious about how people felt.

 

[DonL]

Hello Parsifal,

the exchange rate for pounds to dollars was in 1940 from german Wiki: 1 pound was $4,03.
The heavy break-in was September 1949: 1 pound was $2,80. (at once)

For reference, wiki records an Me 109G-6 Unit cost at 42,900 RM
(G-6, Erla-Werke, 1943), which is roughly $21000 (but not comparable to the 1940 costs)

This number is without engine, with engine the the BF 109G was between 70000-75000 RM

If we look at the list about fly ready USAF a/c's which was posted in this thread, the numbers are very in common

Bf 109G: $33000-38000 with engine (depends on produktion year)
Spitfire: $ 35000 (?)
P40: $48000 (1943)
P51: $51000 (1944)

To my opinion this numbers make sense, perhaps the Spit is a little cheap, but I think the Spitfire also cost between $35000-40000 depending on the production year. I think the Hellcat costs between $70000-80000 (depending on the production year) with engine and full equiped.

What is the most suspicious at your posted link is the price of the engine.
A DB 601 was at 27000-29000 RM, the DB 605 wasn't much cheaper = ~ $14000
The RR Merlin was only at $8000, also he had the same dry weight as the DB 601 and both engines had the same technical level, with the Merlin 60, I think the Merlin had a higher technical level (from materials and twostage supercharger and boost).

So this number is suspect to me, because the Merlin price was around only 57% of the DB 601 engine.

 

[parsifal]

Yeah didnt really look at the material all that closely, just posted it for interest really. If your numbers are good, it makes the $35000 for a hellcat a bit suspicious looking.

 

[zjtins]

Or to put it another way. If Germany was out of resources at the end of 1943, where did the resources come from to build all this equipment in 1944?.

Yet another misquote. This would go better it you stop redefining what I said.
In 43 they we starting to go short on critical materials they were not 'out' till 44. One of the best example I can think of is the move away from further development and use of Mk103 high velocity 30mm cannon to the MK108. The MK108 in addition to stamped housing and such use less chrome and other critical materials needed for high strength steel. The Mk108 being low velocity and low chamber pressure did not need the really good metals.
Round casings were being made with steel instead of brass in volume in '44, Armor on tanks changed from armor plate to essentially plain steel (at first on specific a tank and locations and later essentially all armor).
Yes Germany stepped up in 43 to a war footing but were using materials they generally had on hand and not actually mining more except coal and iron which they have indigenous. Once Norway and the other northern countries fell they were out of new bauxite and other materials. Somewhere in early 44 they had only what they had on hand.

 

[DonL]

Why?

The $35000 are without equipment and engine.

The engines, radios and guns were usually furnished by the government AKA "GFE."

 

[Tante Ju]

DonL,

May I ask from where do you take your numbers? They look very detailed.

 

[DonL]

Which numbers do you mean Tante Ju?

Edit:

The numbers of the FW 187: Dietmar Herrmann, der vergessene Hochleistungsjäger
The numbers for the Ju 89: http://www.flugzeug-lorenz.de/index.php?id=114
The numbers of the Bf 109: Posted here and in german Forums.
The numbers of other Junkers a/c: http://www.flugzeugforum.de/content/ and partly wiki or books
The numbers for the USAF a/c's: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/interesting-usaaf-costs-37213.html

 

[Glider]

Yet another misquote. This would go better it you stop redefining what I said.
In 43 they we starting to go short on critical materials they were not 'out' till 44. One of the best example I can think of is the move away from further development and use of Mk103 high velocity 30mm cannon to the MK108. The MK108 in addition to stamped housing and such use less chrome and other critical materials needed for high strength steel. The Mk108 being low velocity and low chamber pressure did not need the really good metals.
Round casings were being made with steel instead of brass in volume in '44, Armor on tanks changed from armor plate to essentially plain steel (at first on specific a tank and locations and later essentially all armor).
Yes Germany stepped up in 43 to a war footing but were using materials they generally had on hand and not actually mining more except coal and iron which they have indigenous. Once Norway and the other northern countries fell they were out of new bauxite and other materials. Somewhere in early 44 they had only what they had on hand.

Clearly Germany wasn't 'out' of resources until late in the war or they wouldn't have produced all that equipment in 1944. They wouldn't have been short in 1943 or they wouldn't have had the material to produce the equipment in 1944.

All nations did everything they could to maximise production and cut whatever corners they could. There are any number of examples from allied nations as well as Axis. There is no doubt that Germany had to get around this probably more than most. The important thing is that they did get around them and significnatly increased their production.

No if you can show how the shortages impacted the number of tanks, guns and aircraft produced then please do. The following are some sources that I can supply.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_aircraft_production_during_World_War_II
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_armored_fighting_vehicle_production_during_World_War_II

Now if you would like to supply yours it would only be fair

 

[Tante Ju]

Yes I was thinking of price and cost numbers DonL, sorry for not making that very clear... thank you for posting them again!

 

[zjtins]

The quality of the tanks went from full armor to plain steel. So a 100% loss of high end armor.
Shell casings went from brass to steel so although I cant find a count, the 8mm rifle and kurze rounds went to steel, the 20mm AA round went to steel and others. This meant fast wear and more 'stuck' rounds due to improper casing expansion contraction and rust.
ME109 FW190 went to wooden props from Al tail planes and flaps all adding weight to current fighters.
Apparently in early '44 nitrogen plants could not keep up with enough fixed nitrogen for fertilizer and ammo so the crops in 44 were without the help of nitrogen fertilizer as all went to ammo production.
Tanks rounds were almost void of Tungsten which was the better anti tank AP round.
By mid 44 planes for several of the later jet aircraft (HE163, GO229) were of mainly wood and steel tubing construction due to lack of Aluminum.
The jet engines never had a good life usually quoted in the 10's of hours, mail due to no good steels due to shortages of additive to the metals.
Most of the propellents were reduce to black powder charges for rockets or and other projectiles.
They slowed stop building many bomber types just so they could build fighters. from that measure the total aircraft number increase are not nearly as good.

Yes they built stuff but it was not as good as it was originally intended and in many cases and not as good as it needed to be. All a direct result of the limitations on the German industry due to more war material becoming non existent.

 

[fastmongrel]

The quality of the tanks went from full armor to plain steel. So a 100% loss of high end armor.
Shell casings went from brass to steel so although I cant find a count, the 8mm rifle and kurze rounds went to steel, the 20mm AA round went to steel and others. This meant fast wear and more 'stuck' rounds due to improper casing expansion contraction and rust.
ME109 FW190 went to wooden props from Al tail planes and flaps all adding weight to current fighters.
Apparently in early '44 nitrogen plants could not keep up with enough fixed nitrogen for fertilizer and ammo so the crops in 44 were without the help of nitrogen fertilizer as all went to ammo production.
Tanks rounds were almost void of Tungsten which was the better anti tank AP round.
By mid 44 planes for several of the later jet aircraft (HE163, GO229) were of mainly wood and steel tubing construction due to lack of Aluminum.
The jet engines never had a good life usually quoted in the 10's of hours, mail due to no good steels due to shortages of additive to the metals.
Most of the propellents were reduce to black powder charges for rockets or and other projectiles.
They slowed stop building many bomber types just so they could build fighters. from that measure the total aircraft number increase are not nearly as good.

Yes they built stuff but it was not as good as it was originally intended and in many cases and not as good as it needed to be. All a direct result of the limitations on the German industry due to more war material becoming non existent.

Were do you begin

 

[zjtins]

With some facts showing Germany how Germany would find the materials they needed when the country is devoid of most of the critical metals.

 

[altsym]

Where are you getting this information?

 

[Glider]

Were do you begin

No idea, it's the idea that German anti tank guns needed something else to penetrate allied tanks. I always thought they were pretty good at it.

 

[zjtins]

No idea, it's the idea that German anti tank guns needed something else to penetrate allied tanks. I always thought they were pretty good at it.

I know its an aircraft thread but your own search of this forum website will give you the performance for Tungsten vs APBC or other.

 

[zjtins]

Current German minging from the USGS, note nowhere on here are the materials for high end steel, jets engines, etc. SO where were they going to get those materials?
Alumina
Aluminum, Primary
Ammonia
Barite
Bentonite
Bromine
Cadmium
Diatomite
Feldspar
Ferrochromium
Graphite
Gypsum
Hydraulic Cement
Indium
Industrial Sand And Gravel (Silica)
Iron Ore
Kaolin
Marketable Potash
Natural Iron Oxide Pigments
Peat
Pig Iron
Quicklime And Hydrated Lime, Including Dead-Burned Dolomite
Raw Steel
Selenium
Soda Ash