HELP: P-51D Excavation in France Turns Up Questions

That would certainly open up the possibilities of which aircraft this is Terry.

I posted here P-51B's lost in france from 43-45. I used the websites 8th USAF Aircrafts downed in France 1942-1945 Avions de la 8ème Air Force tombés en France 1942/1945 and 8th Air Force Fighter Group - Littlefriends.co.uk to research the S/N's. I only included the B model and also included the pilots that became POW's and Evaded. Its a broad list, but maybe it can help out in getting this figured out. Also included are teh MACR's if needed. Hope this helps.

B-17-France is a website of all USSAF aircraft lost over France during WW2. Lots of good info on it.

42-106906 P-51B 369FS IV-L Sander Lt. Robert B Lost in this a/c 8 June 44 - KIA MACR: 5599

42-106898 P-51B 368FS CV-D Hagan Lt. Benjamin M III Lost in this a/c 8 June 44 - POW MACR: 5598

43-7150 P-51B 334FS QP-P Lost 8 June 44 - Lt. James F Scott KIA MACR: 5605 (also seen this one listed in the 4th FG 847th FS)

43-7199 P-51B 369fs IV-F Booth Lt. Robert J "Posty" Oily Boid II Lost in this a/c 8 June 44 - POW MACR: 5592

42-106667 P-51B 368FS CV-L Marcinkiewicz Lt. John S Sweet Sue Lost in this a/c 7 June 44 - POW MACR: 5518 (also listed as CV-Z)

43-6947 P-51B 363fs B6- Lost 6 June 44 - Lt. Irving A Smith KIA MACR: 5515

42-106917 P-51B 375fs E2-K Nita (L) Bottoms Up (R) Lost 26 Aug 44 - Lt. Jack S Crandell KIA MACR: 8539

42-106916 P-51B 369fs IV-D Lost 18 Aug 44 - Lt. Don S Melrose KIA MACR: 8124

42-106942 P-51B 374fs B7-H Zieske Lt. Clarence E Jeanne (possibly not applied) Named after wife. Lost in this a/c 12 Aug 44 - KIA MACR: 7619

43-24795 P-51B 357fs OS-M Lost 20 July 44 - Lt. Walter O Costello - Evaded MACR: 6837

43-7146 P-51B 328fs PE-V Dubay Lt. Elmo Buster Lost 19 July 44 - Lt. William D Wilson POW MACR: 6841

43-6945 P-51B 358fs YF-R Beckman Lt. Jack M Wizard Kite - Judy Lost 8 July 44 - Lt. James P Lowder Jr. KIA MACR: 6793

42-106870 P-51B 354fs WR-N Fortier Maj. Norman J "Bud" Lost 5 July 44 - Lt. Victor E Denti KIA MACR: 6791

43-6985 P-51B 336fs VF-C Villinger Lt. George K Lost in this a/c 2 March 44 KIA (335 F/S per 8th Losses) MACR: 2790

42-106858 P-51B 358fs YF-Q Dissette Capt. Lawrence J Damn Yank II Lost 19 June 44 - Lt. Ralph L Coleman KIA MACR: 5964

43-6523 P-51B 358fs YF-E Blair Capt. Charles W Jr. Leakin' Lizz Lost 19 June 44 - Lt William W Reeves Jr. KIA MACR: 5961

42-106889 P-51B 503fs D7-P Wyatt Capt. Valdee Serial Code from Encounter Report 19 May 44. Pilot Folwell. Lost 19 June 1945 - Lt. Robert B Brown KIA MACR: 5946

42-106615 P-51B 503fs D7-R Serial Code from Encounter Report 24 May 44. Pilot Brown. Lost 19 June 1944 - Lt. Ralph H Dearey POW MACR: 5944

42-106679 P-51B 369fs IV-O Oliphint Capt. John H The Mad Rebel Lost in this a/c 8 June 44 - Evaded MACR: 5623

42-106823 P-51B 334fs QP-K Allen Lt. Eacott G Lost in this a/c 8 June 44 - Evaded MACR: 5613

43-6895 P-51B 354fs WR-P Couture Lt. Robert D Lost in this a/c 7 June 44 - Evaded and rescued by the Maquis. Returned to Steeple Morden 16 August 1944. MACR: 5565

43-24845 P-51B 487fs HO-R Lost 7 June 44 - Lt. Robert L Hall KIA MACR: 5501

43-12469 P-51B 335fs WD-L Lost 21 March 44 - F/O. Joseph Goetz KIA MACR: 3383

43-6639 P-51B 335fs WD-P Carlow Capt. Earle W Lost in this a/c 21 March 44 - Evaded MACR: 3378

43-6316 P-51B 335fs WD-H Lost 21 March 44 - Lt. William C Hawkins POW MACR: 3438



EDIT: This list is by no means complete, as well as the B-17-France website. .

Beaupower - the list of P-51B/C's lost over France is far longer if you wish to complie pre D-Day losses. For example the 357th lost two of their most important 'names' on March 5, 1944 - Yeager near Angouleme and Col Spicer, Gp CO near Le Havre. Of course Yeager evaded.

I deffently agree with you drgondog, those are only the ones I found so far in the short time I had to do it. It will probably be impossible to list every single one lost over France. I figured at least that can be a start.

beaupower32 said:

I deffently agree with you drgondog, those are only the ones I found so far in the short time I had to do it. It will probably be impossible to list every single one lost over France. I figured at least that can be a start.

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You spent a lot of time and got a good start.

I would estimate at least 70-100 P-51B/C were lost to 8th and 9th plus another 30+ Mustang III over France.

Does anybody know what parts are serialed to the specific aircraft? As in, would the Merlin originally installed in said aircraft also have the serial number of the Mustang? Or would Packard have a list of serialed engines, and which aircraft they were originally installed? I know I'm shooting in the dark. By the crumpled mass of the one photo, its going to be small parts that may eventually identify this airplane. It does look by the one piece to be a B/C model. Maybe if they can find the remains of 4 Brownings instead of 6, that would definately show it is the earlier airplane.

MikeGazdik said:

Does anybody know what parts are serialed to the specific aircraft? As in, would the Merlin originally installed in said aircraft also have the serial number of the Mustang? Or would Packard have a list of serialed engines, and which aircraft they were originally installed? I know I'm shooting in the dark. By the crumpled mass of the one photo, its going to be small parts that may eventually identify this airplane. It does look by the one piece to be a B/C model. Maybe if they can find the remains of 4 Brownings instead of 6, that would definately show it is the earlier airplane.

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If you were able to find specific aircraft equipment lists, engine, prop, turbocharger, landing gear, guns and maybe radios were serialized to specific airframes. The silver bullet would be the data plate if found in the wreck.

The data plate - or the surviving stencil on the left side under the cockpit displaying contract number airframe type and dash number as well as serial number. On the manufacturing line the routing paperwork would carry the NAA serial number (different from tail number but in proper sequence) but the actual serial number didn't go on the tail and outside of the fuselage until the paint shop.

Any part with a number only refers to the BOM part and dash number - not the airframe top serial number. What you could do is take the part numbers found and go back to the Bill of Materials and maybe get lucky with a dash number/block effectivity but by and large the B/D were ~95% common part numbers. GFE on the other hand can also help nail airframe model dash numbers. As Joe noted things like radios and gunsights and engines will yield clues.

The 1650-3 Merlin for example did not get installed in late P51B-5 and all subsequent P-51's. The next engine and all remaining operational engines for the P-51B-7, -10 and -15 plus all P-51D and K models had the 1650-7.

They (1650-3 'the high altitude version of the Merlin") were installed in All P-51B-1's so that would narrow the search down from mid December 1943 to perhaps D-Day during which the early -1's were being retired or WW transfers to training duty.

It may not be possible to identify for certain badly crushed main parts, but other items which could narrow it down between B/C and D variants would be the seat, radio frame, any evidence from the windscreen and canopy area and similar.

Wow - terrific information! Thank you!

With respect to this particular P-51 loss, I think I now have a pretty clear picture, including the pilot, loss date, etc. I published the details and more photos here: http://colesaircraft.blogspot.com/2012/11/anatomy-of-p-51-mustang-loss.html

What's amazing is that the pilot is buried about 120 miles from where I live in Ohio! As of today I'm trying to locate his surviving family with the help of the local newspaper. I'd like to give them the main piece of wreckage from his aircraft, if they're interested. That would be proper.

The one detail that is missing from the above article, however, is the a/c serial number - and perhaps you guys might be able to clear this up. The number I have is 42-312391, which doesn't seem to correspond to the production lists that I have. Nevertheless, I found a photo of a P-51B/F-6B with the tail code 312300, and a 'B' with the 354th FG with the tail code 312408. None of these correspond to my production list, which is why I omitted mention of the serial in my short article. I'd sure like to edit it in, though, if I can figure out for sure what the story is!



- R

The first number 3 indicates the year 1943 so your number 42-312391 seems bogus. In my reference here 1943 USAAF Serial Numbers (43-5109 to 43-52437) there is a gap between 12386 and 12393 so we'll need to look elsewhere for 12391.

Crimea_River said:

The first number 3 indicates the year 1943 so your number 42-312391 seems bogus. In my reference here 1943 USAAF Serial Numbers (43-5109 to 43-52437) there is a gap between 12386 and 12393 so we'll need to look elsewhere for 12391.

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I thought the same regarding the '42' and I suspect that it might have been a simple typo by the source, though I wasn't aware of the significance of the '3' in the number. Thanks for that! Now the records make more sense.

Figured out the serial number error. The original Missing Air Crew Report incorrectly lists the a/c serial as '42-312391' and the pilot's name as 'William Dale' - his name was William Dale Lacey.

I found another photo of him besides the one I included in my Blog article:

The first P-51D models had the same tail, without the dorsal fin, which was fitted later.

The P-51's first flight was 26 Oct 1940, and the 8th Air Force started P-51 operations from Great Britain in August 1942. I believe the 8th began operating P-51's in the fall of 1943, but Great Britain reveived some P-51's early on for evalulation since they were the ordering customer. The British planes early on used factory numbers and were not called "P-51's", but were instead NA-73's (320) and NA-83's (300). All were designated Mustang Mk I's by the UK. The P-51A's were designated Mustang II's.

The first Mustang I's entered British service in 1941 with 2 Squadron RAF. The first long-range missions were on 27 July 1942, so if this one crashed earlier, it was one of the first Mustang I's in British service, and was either an NA-73 or NA-83. They all had Allison engines and Curtiss Electric props, so maybe not ...

The P-51B (first flight 30 Nov 1942) and C were the same aircraft with the B being made in Inglewood, California and the C being made in Dallas, Texas. The P-51D and K weer also the same with the D made in Inglewood and the K made in Dallas. The only real difference in the D and K was the propeller. The K had an Aeroproducts airscrew and the D and a Hamilton-Standard.

So, your P-51 is very probably a British plane from the early batches and was very probably designated as a Mustang I. The British DID fit a Merlin to a couple of Mustang I's, but I do not know the history of those airframes. The Allison-engined planes were fitted with Curtiss Electric props, so maybe your parts are from the British Merlin trials planes or perhaps the source for your data got the year wrong ... maybe it was 1944.

I may be wrong, but I believe the British Merlin-Mustang prototypes used British props, not Hamilton-Standard units.

This is interesting!

Oops!

A deserved tribute for a fallen hero.
How striking and sad it is to see both the DOB and KIA date. A sobering remainder of the infinite sacrifices made by the WWII generation to preserve our freedom.

May they all rest in peace.

TheMustangRider said:

A deserved tribute for a fallen hero.
How striking and sad it is to see both the DOB and KIA date. A sobering remainder of the infinite sacrifices made by the WWII generation to preserve our freedom.

May they all rest in peace.

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I know the feeling. When I receive parts from warbirds like this, there are occasionally instances when I learn of fatalities associated with them, and that always makes a strong impression. But this has been the most powerful case so far, and as an artist who ultimately has to make a living doing what I do with my art and these pieces - I felt uneasy about the commercial aspect of this project. Thus I've tried especially hard to be tasteful and do service to the man and his machine. 10% of all of my eBay sales from this display are going to a San Diego veteran's charity, and I'm in touch with Lt. Lacey's hometown newspaper and the cemetery near Toledo with the hope of contacting his surviving relatives. I believe that his sister, who was 80 in 2009, has since past away, but I'd like to donate the largest piece of this aircraft to them.

- R

Here's my painting of this aircraft:

very nice....

The British Merlin Mustangs were called the :"Mustang X." If you Google it, you'll see they had much more of a chin droop than the North American version and also had British props.

Glad you got it straight; GREAT painting!