Henschel Hs 124 as a light bomber

[wiking85]

It is the last part that gets hard to swallow. "Getting wings like the A-26 " was certainly not impossible (in 1943 for production) but at that point you have a mostly new airplane. ALL new wing, bigger engines and engine nacelles, new landing gear. It is also a looong time to wait with the old wing. Using significantly more powerful engines may call for a larger tail too.

1st part only needs almost total air superiority. It may or may not have been the goal of the original specification what with the 20mm guns in either a turret or limited traverse mount. It also needs the enemy ground troops to have a very poor AA capability. In other words after France in 1940 or Russia in 1941 it's usefulness diminishes rather rapidly.

Really more like by 1943 in Russia and late 1942 the Mediterranean, but by then the upgrades would be made. Just like the Ju188, but now without the Me410 it can take DB603 engines by 1942-43.

Large, rather slow Attack aircraft making nice AA targets even if they can turn well.
Performance of the HS 124 prototypes is also without armor or protected tanks. The large tanks and long range/duration will be a thing of the past when the plane is brought up to combat standards of late 1940.

JU-88 modified the wings from the break point between the flaps and the ailerons, including the JU 188. They kept the bulk of the structure of wing center section.

Still, the changes can be made and it would be cheaper than going from the Bf110 to the Me410, while also using Ju88C/Gs as heavy fighters. The Hs124 could do everything the Bf110 did historically and replace some of the Ju88's roles throughout the war. Meanwhile it could replace the Do17 by 1938.

 

[Shortround6]

Really more like by 1943 in Russia and late 1942 the Mediterranean, but by then the upgrades would be made. Just like the Ju188, but now without the Me410 it can take DB603 engines by 1942-43.

Sticking DB603s on the HS 124 would be like sticking Griffons on a Blenheim.

Still, the changes can be made and it would be cheaper than going from the Bf110 to the Me410, while also using Ju88C/Gs as heavy fighters. The Hs124 could do everything the Bf110 did historically and replace some of the Ju88's roles throughout the war. Meanwhile it could replace the Do17 by 1938.

How is it cheaper than the bf 110 to 410 switch if you take out the 210 blunder? or stuck an extra meter of fuselage on the 210 earlier?

The HS 124 even with DB 601s in the BoB would have the Bf 110 look like a wonder plane. If the 110s needed escorts one can only imagine what the slower HS 124s would have needed to survive. You also need two things for medium/long range recon. Speed and range. the HS 124 had the range, it didn't have the speed. Please look at the Do 215. What is the HS 124 going to do that the Do 215 couldn't or what could it do significantly better?

It can't replace the DO 17 by 1938 because it has a smaller bomb bay. Needing 66% more planes to deliver the same tonnage of bombs over several hundred miles is hardly an improvement for the Luftwaffe.

 

[wiking85]

Sticking DB603s on the HS 124 would be like sticking Griffons on a Blenheim.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henschel_Hs_124#Specifications_.28Hs_124_V2.29
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_410#Specifications_.28Me_410_A-1.29

It was bigger than the Me410 and with wing redesign (perhaps and Hs224) there is nothing wrong with that choice.

How is it cheaper than the bf 110 to 410 switch if you take out the 210 blunder? or stuck an extra meter of fuselage on the 210 earlier?

The HS 124 even with DB 601s in the BoB would have the Bf 110 look like a wonder plane. If the 110s needed escorts one can only imagine what the slower HS 124s would have needed to survive. You also need two things for medium/long range recon. Speed and range. the HS 124 had the range, it didn't have the speed. Please look at the Do 215. What is the HS 124 going to do that the Do 215 couldn't or what could it do significantly better?

It can't replace the DO 17 by 1938 because it has a smaller bomb bay. Needing 66% more planes to deliver the same tonnage of bombs over several hundred miles is hardly an improvement for the Luftwaffe.

Still cheaper in terms of numbers because the cost of the switch over was still high in terms of production time lost even without the Me210 problems. Plus if you put it into production sooner by replace the Do17 it would have a lot more economies of scale than the Bf110/Do17/Me410/Ju88C/G that its replacing, plus experience working with the airframe; upgrading it later would be far less of a cost than replacing it, even if they go the Ju188 route of upgrades.

The Hs124 wouldn't be an escort fighter, which is the point of this thread; it would be a dedicated light bomber/ground attack aircraft/night fighter/early war daylight bomber destroyer. It would NOT be an escort, which the Bf110 sucked at anyway and only ended up succeeding as a light bomber in raids during the BoB.

The Do215 had 315mph top speed, which the DB601 equipped and stripped down Hs124 could reach, especially with wing refinements. Except the Hs124 is more versatile, has greater room for improvement, and range potential.

The Do17 was supposed to be replaced in 1938 by the Ju88 anyway; the Do17 had such a short range with 500kg internal load that the Hs124 would be an improvement, especially once developed from 1936-38. Plus its smaller, cheaper, has more potential roles, and is more upgradable. How often did the Do17 really carry 1000kg loads historically? And it was known for being highly vulnerable even in France, having a much slower top speed than the Hs 124.

 

[Shortround6]

You can have a physical large airplane but that does not mean you can double the weight of the engines or double their power without at least some structural reinforcement.

I also like the basic design and materials the HS 124 seems to made of, seeing as it seems to be capable of being upgraded/modified at so little cost/effort compared to other contemporary aircraft.

Now then: "The Hs124 wouldn't be an escort fighter, which is the point of this thread" granted but then don't claim "The Hs124 could do everything the Bf110 did historically.." The Bf 110 performed well in Poland and France helping take out their air forces in the first days of fighting. It didn't do as bad as most people think in the BoB in the first few weeks before it was changed to closer escort of the bombers. It was a pretty good light bomber in it's own right as once the bombs were gone it could get out of the target area faster and was better able to take care of itself than the twin engine bombers. Substituting a larger/slower aircraft would not have gone well.

I do like the "The Do215 had 315mph top speed, which the DB601 equipped and stripped down Hs124 could reach, especially with wing refinements." bit. What are you going to strip out of the HS 124? the rear gunner? The fuel (in unprotected tanks) that gave it it's range? and we are into those wonderful, low cost, no disruption to production "wing refinements".

Any plane can be drastically improved if we claim low cost but unspecified improvements.

 

[wiking85]

You can have a physical large airplane but that does not mean you can double the weight of the engines or double their power without at least some structural reinforcement.

I also like the basic design and materials the HS 124 seems to made of, seeing as it seems to be capable of being upgraded/modified at so little cost/effort compared to other contemporary aircraft.

Now then: "The Hs124 wouldn't be an escort fighter, which is the point of this thread" granted but then don't claim "The Hs124 could do everything the Bf110 did historically.." The Bf 110 performed well in Poland and France helping take out their air forces in the first days of fighting. It didn't do as bad as most people think in the BoB in the first few weeks before it was changed to closer escort of the bombers. It was a pretty good light bomber in it's own right as once the bombs were gone it could get out of the target area faster and was better able to take care of itself than the twin engine bombers. Substituting a larger/slower aircraft would not have gone well.

I do like the "The Do215 had 315mph top speed, which the DB601 equipped and stripped down Hs124 could reach, especially with wing refinements." bit. What are you going to strip out of the HS 124? the rear gunner? The fuel (in unprotected tanks) that gave it it's range? and we are into those wonderful, low cost, no disruption to production "wing refinements".

Any plane can be drastically improved if we claim low cost but unspecified improvements.

In 1939-40 the Bf110 primarily eliminated Allied airforces by attacking them on the ground; in Poland they didn't engage in air combat because there were so few of both the Polish and Bf110 aircraft. In the West they primarily acted as straffers and bomber destroyers and suffered when fighting SE fighters. In the BoB the Germans would have been better off not having the Bf110s to lose other than using them as 'fast' light bombers, as with DB601s they would be faster than any other bomber the Germans had historically. Even Erp210 used Me109 escorts and were often not intercepted during the BoB because they operated in small groups and the British didn't want to waste resources hunting down 3-5 aircraft at a time. So even a slower Hs124 would have the same protection. Also with just internal bombs instead of the external ones the Bf110 had they can run pretty well, especially once jettisoned and weight thus cut down.


The Do215 stripped out a lot of armor; I was referring to stripping some of the wing out for the recon variant to reduce drag, as maneuverability matters a lot less than speed in that role. Refine the nose like the V3 prototype minus the cannon. It would weigh less than the V2 prototype as it wouldn't carry bombs and have a more aerodynamic nose. I'm not sure what other refinements would happen during the 2 year development phase at Rechlin.

 

[GrauGeist]

According to Griehl's research, there were 5 Hs124 airframes:

V1 (WkNmr 0268) had 2 Jumo210C engines, first flew 10 October 1935 - crashed 10 April 1937
V2 (WkNmr 0269) had improved under carriage and 2 BMW132D engines, first flew January 1938 - scrapped 25 February 1938
V3 (WkNmr unknown) mockup for high altitude reconnaissance, never flown - work abandoned mid-1938
V4 (WkNmr 0270) based on V1, redesigned forward fuselage, first flew September 1937 - transferred to Travemunde E-stelle 2 June 1939
V5 (WkNmr unknown) used for testing, first flown July 1936 - scrapped late 1936.

I still don't see how this particular design would produce the results that are being insisted on. The Hs124 size-wize falls between the Ju88 and the Bf110 and that also brings us to the point of that diversion in roles. The Hs124 ony had two nose-mounted MGs, even with the turret feature. The Bf110 was designed as a destroyer (heavy fighter) from the onset, the Ju88 was designed as a fast bomber from the onset. The Hs124 was supposed to do both.

The fastest rated speed for the 124 that I've seen so far, falls well below the Bf110 or the Ju88. Trying to stuff more armament in it, then add larger engines, clean up the airframe and all that will end up creating an entirely new aircraft and how much time has elapsed?

The claim that the Hs124 was able to outperform a Bf109 (even an A-0 series) is ridiculous, as the Bf109 was a world-class fighter during the time the Hs124 was being developed. I could see perhaps, besting a Bf108, but certainly not a Bf109.

 

[wiking85]

According to Griehl's research, there were 5 Hs124 airframes:

V1 (WkNmr 0268) had 2 Jumo210C engines, first flew 10 October 1935 - crashed 10 April 1937
V2 (WkNmr 0269) had improved under carriage and 2 BMW132D engines, first flew January 1938 - scrapped 25 February 1938
V3 (WkNmr unknown) mockup for high altitude reconnaissance, never flown - work abandoned mid-1938
V4 (WkNmr 0270) based on V1, redesigned forward fuselage, first flew September 1937 - transferred to Travemunde E-stelle 2 June 1939
V5 (WkNmr unknown) used for testing, first flown July 1936 - scrapped late 1936.

I still don't see how this particular design would produce the results that are being insisted on. The Hs124 size-wize falls between the Ju88 and the Bf110 and that also brings us to the point of that diversion in roles. The Hs124 ony had two nose-mounted MGs, even with the turret feature. The Bf110 was designed as a destroyer (heavy fighter) from the onset, the Ju88 was designed as a fast bomber from the onset. The Hs124 was supposed to do both.

The fastest rated speed for the 124 that I've seen so far, falls well below the Bf110 or the Ju88. Trying to stuff more armament in it, then add larger engines, clean up the airframe and all that will end up creating an entirely new aircraft and how much time has elapsed?

The claim that the Hs124 was able to outperform a Bf109 (even an A-0 series) is ridiculous, as the Bf109 was a world-class fighter during the time the Hs124 was being developed. I could see perhaps, besting a Bf108, but certainly not a Bf109.

For one thing it never used the DB600, 601, or Jumo 211 engines, just low powered Jumo 210 and BMW 132 engines. Look at the changes that the Ju88 went through in its 2 year development period, a lot can change then.

 

[GrauGeist]

But, the Ju88 outperformed the Hs124 from the start, so to even match the early Ju88, it would have to play catch-up. How many eyars of development and testing would it take to get the airframe capable of accepting new engines, heavier armament and so on?

Also, after the Hs124 was passed over initially in the fighter-bomber competition, the Hs127 was built to compete in the fast bomber category and lost to the Ju88. So even Heinkel felt that the 124 was a dead end.

 

[Shortround6]

Just so everybody is on the same page (sort of) the wing areas are as follows.

Hs 124................587.7 sq ft.
Bf 110B...............418.7 sq ft.
Do-17E................592.0 sq ft
JU-88A-1.............565.1 sq ft
Ju-88A-4.............586.6 sq ft

And for the Allies

Blenheim...........469 sq ft
Hampden...........668 sq ft.
SB-2.................610.3 sq ft.
A-20.................465 sq ft
Maryland...........537 sq ft.

Wing area alone does not tell the whole story and minor differences (single digit percentages) are unlikely to have much impact. Most of these planes (at least the ones that went through much development) gained weight, often a lot of weight. A Do17E went about 9920lbs empty, A Do 17Z-2 went about 12,958-13,145lbs empty and a DO 215 went 12,730lbs empty. The JU-88 was much heavier and the A-4 was thousands of pounds heavier empty than some of the planes were when loaded.
A Maryland went 10,586lbs empty and 15,297 normal loaded, A Baltimore using pretty much the same wing (beefed up?) went 15,991lbs empty with it's bigger fuselage, heavier armament and more powerful engines.

I will grant you that the HS 124 could probably take DB 600/1 engines with little or no trouble (lots of German prototypes never got their intended DB engines) and performance would have been better. The question is if the performace would have been enough better to replace all those other types. And believing that a 7230kg Hs 124 could really replace a 12,130-14,029kg JU88A-4 takes an awful lot of faith, even giving the HS 124 a growth allowance.

 

[kool kitty89]

Just so everybody is on the same page (sort of) the wing areas are as follows.

Hs 124................587.7 sq ft.
Bf 110B...............418.7 sq ft.
Do-17E................592.0 sq ft
JU-88A-1.............565.1 sq ft
Ju-88A-4.............586.6 sq ft

And for the Allies

Blenheim...........469 sq ft
Hampden...........668 sq ft.
SB-2.................610.3 sq ft.
A-20.................465 sq ft
Maryland...........537 sq ft.

You might as well throw in the Mosquito's 454 square ft as well.

But on the whole, I think Henschel's best incentive for not bothering with the existing Hs 124 design was that going back to the drawing board for a better, more advanced design was preferable than mucking around with upgrading a 1934 airframe that hadn't been ordered for production. The pretty well did this on all accounts with their later Hs 127, as I already commented on here:
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/information-hs-127-a-43752-post1219529.html#post1219529

And hell, even though it was aimed at the fast-bomber role like the Ju 88, it was much more in line with the Bf 110's size in external dimensions and wing area. (but heavier and with a bulkier fuselage to accommodate the bomb bay)

The production Ju 88 ended up quite heavy, but given the somewhat larger dimensions of the initial prototypes, the Hs 127 seems like a better design as far as Me 410 or Mosquito type performance ethics go, including night fighter potential. (without the extreme wing loading of the Ar 240)

We've already argued plenty over the merits of keeping the Ju 88 closer to its initial unarmmed, light, not dive bomb capable, no external racks fast and clean format, so I don't think we need to start up that tangent again here. (but if you argue for the Hs 124, you might as well argue for that as well -the 124 likely would have gotten a great deal heavier if stressed for high G loads of fighter-bomber and dive-bomber duties, not to mentio upgraded armor, armament, and fuel tanks)

 

[parsifal]

which was the older design? The HS 124, the He111 or the Do17?

Remember the Ju88 was not really entering large scale service use until the Battle Of Britain. It was a generation later than the He111, and the He111P was still in widespread use in 1939.

Moreover, the LW was still using the Ju52 as its primary bomber trainer with a secondary use as transport. This was one of the LWs achilles heels. Every time they employed large scale airborne assaults or air bridge operations, they suffered heavy attrition from the aircraft and aircrews used mainly for the training of replacement crews. A dedicated bomber 1937-38, could then have been used as a dedicated trainer with dedicated training staff. The LW, with fuel issues and always wanting to put everything in the shop window never even attempted this. If the HS 124 could be made cheaply using second line engines and a ready made tried and proven airframe, it might have been able to fill a role similar to the Oxford or the Anson.

 

[wiking85]

which was the older design? The HS 124, the He111 or the Do17?

Remember the Ju88 was not really entering large scale service use until the Battle Of Britain. It was a generation later than the He111, and the He111P was still in widespread use in 1939.

Moreover, the LW was still using the Ju52 as its primary bomber trainer with a secondary use as transport. This was one of the LWs achilles heels. Every time they employed large scale airborne assaults or air bridge operations, they suffered heavy attrition from the aircraft and aircrews used mainly for the training of replacement crews. A dedicated bomber 1937-38, could then have been used as a dedicated trainer with dedicated training staff. The LW, with fuel issues and always wanting to put everything in the shop window never even attempted this. If the HS 124 could be made cheaply using second line engines and a ready made tried and proven airframe, it might have been able to fill a role similar to the Oxford or the Anson.

The He111 and Do17 are both older than the Hs124. It used engines that the Do17Z did, but would get even better performance from the 1000hp version that the 1940 version of the Do17 fielded than they did with the 800hp version they used in 1936 (they were already faster and longer ranged than the Do17 in 1936 than the higher powered Do17Z was in 1940). Of course it would be a vast improvement over what was historically there. With the 1000hp BMW 132s/Bramo 323s it would have been faster than the 1940 Ju88. With DB601 or Jumo 211 it would have been faster than the Ju88A4 of 1941-42. Yes, it would not have been as fast as the Bf110 in its clean C-series version, but bomb laden with its internal load vs. the Bf110 with external load it would have been as fast if not faster.

 

[kool kitty89]

The He111 and Do17 are both older than the Hs124. It used engines that the Do17Z did, but would get even better performance from the 1000hp version that the 1940 version of the Do17 fielded than they did with the 800hp version they used in 1936 (they were already faster and longer ranged than the Do17 in 1936 than the higher powered Do17Z was in 1940). Of course it would be a vast improvement over what was historically there. With the 1000hp BMW 132s/Bramo 323s it would have been faster than the 1940 Ju88.

Do remember that 1000 PS rating for the Bramo 323 was only for take-off, though those engines in question did at least have somewhat higher ratings in general and better altitude performance than even the high gear ratio variants using the earlier single speed supercharger.

The comparison to the Ju 88 is somewhat moot IMO as it relies on the Hs 124 being configured in a lean, clean, efficient manner optimized for speed (something that the Ju 88 would have also benefited greatly from -omitting the gondola, external racks, dive breaks, some of the dive-bombing specific reinforcement and added weight, and using more streamlined nose glazing), plus the Hs 127 would have been a better contestant to compete or complement the Ju 88 in any case.

However, next to the aging Do 17, the Hs 124 had a somewhat more limited bombload (and couldn't carry the big 250 or 500 kg bombs) but may have been superior in range, fuel efficiency, and survivability.

The He 111 had no real alternative with its large fuel capacity, range, and bombload. (and ability to use larger than 100 kg bombs internally)

The exception to the Hs 127's superority would also be if the Hs 124 had already reached mass production and continued variations thereof would have advantages due to their established nature (production, refinement beyond teething period, experienced crews, etc) over a newer replacement. (its smaller size also indeed may have encroached more on the BF 110's usefulness and likely 'fighter' variants of the Ju 88 as well -ie ground attack and night fighter roles) It may have been a poor fit for engines any larger/heavier/more powerful than the Jumo 211F or possibly J, but may have evolved rather well up to that point with those engines possibly representing the zenith of the type's development.

 

[nuuumannn]

Ahh, this is our mystery aeroplane photo from a while back now. Having read through the informative posts here, I'm inclined to agree with Dave and Shorty; don't waste time with it. The Luftwaffe made the right decision in a multi-role combat aircraft in the form of the Ju 88 and to a degree the Bf 110, which proved itself a great design even if it did not live up to expectations in the role it was designed for, which was flawed to begin with. The possible benchmark for the Hs 124, bearing in mind its role, during the war at least was...

You might as well throw in the Mosquito's 454 square ft as well.

This is what the world's aviation industry was capable of in 1940 and was effectively the industry competition. I sincerely doubt the Hs 124 could match; it struggles against the Ju 88, which was a superb warplane.

 

[kool kitty89]

This is what the world's aviation industry was capable of in 1940 and was effectively the industry competition. I sincerely doubt the Hs 124 could match; it struggles against the Ju 88, which was a superb warplane.

The Hs 127 was the Ju 88's contemporary and competition, though, not the Hs 124. The 124 was an older design and as such, has the more notable context of potentially being in production much earlier (and continued as such in an evolutionary role).

In that sense (as per my previous post), it looks like the best case for the Hs 124 would have been out-performing the Do 17 while using similar powerplants, and potentially partially supplementing the Bf 110 and Ju 88 to some degree if adapted to Jumo 211s.

Both the Ju 88 and Hs 127 seem to have had similar performance in prototype testing, but the Ju 88 suffered from being adapted to carry a significant defensive armament while also being dive-bomb capable AND being equipped to carry large external bombloads. (all of which would have similarly hindered the Hs 127 had its development continued similarly, unless by some luck they'd managed to sell the RLM on a 'pure' fast-bomber configuration -remember the British Air Ministry also nearly ruined the Mosquito the same way, sans dive bombing requirement, so at least some was down to luck/chance and having the right people to make sensible decisions at the right time)

 

[johnbr]

 

[johnbr]

Postcard german Henschel HS 124 - Luftwaffe !