SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Hey, stuff happens.
HMS Prince of Wales breaks down….
- Thread starter Admiral Beez
- Start date
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Love your Pegasus Avitar.
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Thanks. I'm one of two ex Paras here.
Thanks for your service. In 1994, the 50th anniversary of D-Day, I took my family to Normandy via London, South Hampton, Hendon, Bovington, and of course the IWM in Brixton. One of my goals besides paying homage to all of the brave people who participated in that invasion by visiting most of the beaches…to take our son to Pegasus Bridge. I'm grateful to those brave paras who captured the bridge thereby preventing the German army from attacking the beaches. Walking those hallowed grounds, having studied the European theater obsessively, knowing that failure might have meant a world tragedy of unheard of proportions, was an experience that defies adequate words.
Did someone mention keel-hauling? Not a small thing on a carrier...
HMS Prince of Wales, the £3bn pride of the Navy, grinds to halt over ‘failure to grease propeller shaft’
‘Embarrassment’ as new aircraft carrier's landmark mission to the US hangs in the balance over major faultwww.telegraph.co.uk
- Thread starter
- #26
Admiral Beez
Major
Apparently this is not accurate. The fault was not a consequence of lack of shaft grease.HMS Prince of Wales, the £3bn pride of the Navy, grinds to halt over ‘failure to grease propeller shaft’
‘Embarrassment’ as new aircraft carrier's landmark mission to the US hangs in the balance over major fault
The real reason.
Looks like they got the initial diagnosis wrong before she sailed.
Looks like they got the initial diagnosis wrong before she sailed.
- Thread starter
- #28
Admiral Beez
Major
She's back.The real reason.
Looks like they got the initial diagnosis wrong before she sailed.
High speed heavy metal – HMS Prince of Wales in power tests
HMS Prince of Wales recently demonstrated high-speed capabilities during a series of intensive power tests.
ukdefencejournal.org.uk
Thumpalumpacus
Major
She's back.
High speed heavy metal – HMS Prince of Wales in power tests
HMS Prince of Wales recently demonstrated high-speed capabilities during a series of intensive power tests.
How many F-35s do they have for offensive punch for both flattops?
buffnut453
Captain
Somewhere between 30 and 37. The UK reportedly had received 30 airframes as of December last year (presume that includes the one airframe they've lost) and were due to receive another 7 in 2023.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
That's for both? Or each?
buffnut453
Captain
For both...it's the total the UK has received.
Typical complement aboard each carrier will be 36 F-35s plus 4 helicopters, although each ship has a theoretical surge capacity up to 72 aircraft.
Typical complement aboard each carrier will be 36 F-35s plus 4 helicopters, although each ship has a theoretical surge capacity up to 72 aircraft.
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That was the plan way back in the late 1990s when the ships were being designed and the U.K. was planning to acquire 138 F-35B Lightning. Sadly, with defence cut backs much has changed.
Firstly F-35B for the RAF will only be 48 aircraft in the first tranche (with 1 already lost) with deliveries through to about 2025, plus a second tranche of 26 announced in 2022 the price and delivery dates of which were then being negotiated. Total 74. Delivery schedule is detailed here
At present plans are for a training squadron, 207, plus 2 operational squadrons, 617 and 809. The latter is due to stand up in 2023 but it will be another 2 years before it becomes fully operational. Normally squadrons tend to form around April but I've not seen anything to indicate that has yet happened in the case of 809.
As for the composition of the air group, that has gone through various changes of designation. At one point it was referred to as a "Tailored Air Group" now just "Carrier Air Wing". It has no fixed shape, composition varying according to the needs of the work it is required to carry out. The core of that Wing has been F-35B and Merlin HM.2 ASW helicopters (some fitted with Crowsnest AEW package but things seem to have gone quiet on that front lately). After that Merlin HC4/4A, Chinooks, Wildcat and Apache helicopters have also been deployed aboard.
For CSG 21 Queen Elizabeth embarked 8x F-35B from 617 squadron and 10 from VMFA-211 of the US Marine Corps. In addition 7 Merlin HM.2 (3 with Crowsnest) of 820 squadron were embarked. Other ships in the task group embarked 4x Wildcat HM.1 (815 squadron) and 3x Merlin HC.4 (845 squadron) which operated from QE's flight deck when called upon to do so.
Maybe at some point for short term deployments at some point in the future we might see one of the QEs embark 24 British F-35B. But I doubt we will ever see 36 or more aboard unless the politicos screw up and we end up in a full scale war.
Edit - for CSG 22 QE deployed with 8 F-35B from 617 squadron, 3 Merlin HM.2 (2 with Crowsnest) from 820 squadron, 2 Merlin HC.4 from 845 squadron & 2 Wildcat HMA.2 from 825 squadron.
Brief UK Carrier Strike Group 2022 deployment wraps up | Navy Lookout
www.navylookout.com
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- Thread starter
- #34
Admiral Beez
Major
With presumably the second QE in long-term reserve, so that the two dozen F-35s can rotate from ship to ship. Though hopefully long-term reserve is not like how HMS Ark Royal was in commission whilst HMS Eagle was in reserve.... and slowly cannibalized for parts.
I still wish the Brits had made these CATOBAR carriers with angled flight decks. Britain invented or led development of both ideas. With CATOBAR the FAA could have operated Rafales or Hornets until sufficient F-35Cs were available. Yes, CATOBAR is pricier to build, and without steam a novel electromagnetic catapult (EMALS) would be needed, but the operational flexibility could be very beneficial.
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No that is not the intention at the present time. Other than the normal refit schedule it is intended to keep both carriers manned and ready. That is not to say you will see both of them at sea simultaneously any time soon.
QE just completed a round of exercises in June and has more activity planned for the autumn.
PoW has been working up after completing her repairs and leaving Rosyth. Exercises were carried out testing her machinery, various FAA (Merlin) and RAF (Chinook) trials have taken place aboard, exercises with an RFA took place.
As of Friday, both carriers were alongside in Portsmouth with their crews enjoying their annual leave.
As for how we got here you might be interested in the following articles from 2018/19 detailing the development of these ships and the reasons behind the choices made.
This was the timeline produced way back in 2017 which has largely been adhered to. Initial SVRL trials took place in 2019 on QE. PoW was fitted with the necessary Bedford Array lighting system to continue development of this technique, but further tests scheduled for 2022 have been delayed by PoW needing repaired. AIUI these will be carried out this autumn.
There have been a couple of changes. I've already mentioned the 809 position. 849 disbanded in 2020 with the Merlin AEW now being operated by 820. It is supposed to be able to be quickly installed/removed from any Merlin HM.2.
Infographic: Timeline for delivering carrier strike | Navy Lookout
Infographic: Timeline for delivering the Royal Navy's queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers
www.navylookout.com
33 F-35B have been delivered so far with another 4 due by the end of 2023 to keep that aspect on track. If anything the issue here seems to be with the RAF pilot training aspect. 617 have also been undertaking deployments in Eastern Europe.
Amongst things announced is that a Carrier Strike Group will return to the Indo-Pacific region in 2025.
- Thread starter
- #36
Admiral Beez
Major
Good info on the QEs. It will be interesting when the PLAN returns the favour with a CSG visit to the North Atlantic led by the new carrier Fujian, presumably to Russia post Ukraine war.
China's 'Fujian' carrier allegedly close to testing its EM catapult
According to sources like the South China Morning Post, China's most advanced aircraft carrier, the Fujian, could be getting ready to test one of its electromagnetic catapults.
interestingengineering.com
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The Indian Ocean in the foreseeable future maybe. But they are a long long way from being able to support an Atlantic operation.Good info on the QEs. It will be interesting when the PLAN returns the favour with a CSG visit to the North Atlantic led by the new carrier Fujian, presumably to Russia post Ukraine war.
China's 'Fujian' carrier allegedly close to testing its EM catapult
According to sources like the South China Morning Post, China's most advanced aircraft carrier, the Fujian, could be getting ready to test one of its electromagnetic catapults.
Sustaining the Chinese Navy’s Operations at Sea: Bigger Fists, Growing Legs - Foreign Policy Research Institute
The significance of underway replenishment ships for out-of-area naval operations was no doubt impressed on the Chinese navy during its rotational deployment
www.fpri.org
And if you are talking about a trip to Russia that means the northern Russian Murmansk region or far eastern Vladivostok. A carrier like Shandong or Fujian, being from a non-Black Sea state, is too big for the Bosphorus entrance to the Black Sea courtesy of the terms of the 1936 Montreaux Convention, which the Turks have strongly defended over the years. Different rules applied to USSR/Russia, as a Black Swa nation, over the Admiral Kuznetsov.
Turkey, the Montreux Convention, and Russian Navy Transits of the Turkish Straits
A review of the Montreux Convention and its implications with the war in Ukraine.
- Thread starter
- #38
Admiral Beez
Major
No, straight through NATO waters to St. Petersburg would send the right message. Much the same as a RN CSG's sailing past Taiwan.
Ok I forgot about the Baltic. But their navigational skills will need to be top notch. Some very narrow shipping channels through the Kattegat.No, straight through NATO waters to St. Petersburg would send the right message. Much the same as a RN CSG's sailing past Taiwan.
Interestingly, I can't think of an occasion when the USN has put a CVN into the Baltic. Usually they fly their operations from the Norwegian or North Seas and never venturing further than Oslo. Usually only the Amphibious Readiness Groups actually enter the Baltic. The largest ships in those are the 40,000 ton LHAs.
Sending 2 warships and a support vessel to visit Nigeria for a five day port visit is a long way from supporting a full CSG operationally that far from home.
Chinese navy’s 5-day Nigeria visit marks rare West Africa foray
The arrival of Chinese naval fleet in Nigeria comes amid speculation the Gulf of Guinea could offer a base for Beijing.
Even the talk of them co-operating with Russia, building icebreakers and coming into the Atlantic via the northern route also seems far fetched despite stories emanating from France. Chinese Russian relations must be getting a bit strained with a Chinese embassy in Ukraine bombed by mistake and Russian attempts to cut Ukranian grain supplies when China is a major customer. Relations between the pair are clearly complicated but I really don't see Putin letting China use his waters to put one over on NATO. After all how does that make him look.
Perhaps they will try to force the North West Passage. That will upset you Canadians!!
So we will have to disagree about this threat, at least for the foreseeable future.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Not to mention the reality that one Chinese carrier visiting St Petersburg does not change the equation of 11 US CVNs doing rotating patrols, not to mention the French CVN and the two Brit flattops. And not to mention the land-based A2/AD assets NATO could deploy in war. Gosh, it'd suck to get a bunch of Harpoons or land-based MLRS missiles aboard. Or a torpedo or four.
China is surely a growing threat. We've got three more Fords coming online soon ourselves. If China wants to park a carrier in the Atlantic, fine by me. Feel your oats, get after it. As warfighting potential, meh, unimpressed. Supply it for a long patrol, innit?
China is surely a growing threat. We've got three more Fords coming online soon ourselves. If China wants to park a carrier in the Atlantic, fine by me. Feel your oats, get after it. As warfighting potential, meh, unimpressed. Supply it for a long patrol, innit?
