Horton Flying Wing

[MIflyer]

I believe that the attached came from a National Geographic TV show on the restoration/new build of a Horton flying wing, a show I have never seen.

 

[MIflyer]

Also, here is an article from the August 1946 issue of Aviation Magazine.

 

[MIflyer]

.And here is some box art.

 

[pinehilljoe]

Last time I visited Udvar Hazy Museum , about 2 years ago, the Horten is in pieces in the shop.

 

[MIflyer]

Hey, look what I found .... again: Hitler's Stealth Fighter

 

[Gnomey]

Interesting!

 

[GrauGeist]

Northrop built an exact replica to study it's cross section and I beleive National Geographic documented it.

 

[MIflyer]

It is true they put that replica on a radar range to measure its return.

 

[nuuumannn]

Two Horten flying wing gliders in Argentina, where Reimar Horten went after the war and built several aircraft designs. The I.Ae-41 Urubu on display at the Museo Nacional Aeronautica, Buenos Aires.

Urubu

The Horten Alita prone position glider, which never flew.

Horten II

Horten I

A Horten H II Habicht on display at the Deutsches Technic Museum, Berlin.

Horten ii

Horten i

Hitler's Stealth Fighter

I haven't watched the show, but I hope it doesn't perpetuate the myth that the Ho IX was designed with 'stealth' in mind, because it wasn't. One of the surviving Hortens said as much in an interview in the 70s, but it has never been corroborated by any contemporary documentation. It's a bit of a have that gets perpetuated by the media every now and then - Fake news to quote an overused phrase.

 

[MIflyer]

The B-49 was not designed with stealth in mind, either. But they stumbled onto the fact that it was stealthy during testing and the B-2 has almost exactly the same wingspan.

 

[nuuumannn]

The B-49 was not designed with stealth in mind, either. But they stumbled onto the fact that it was stealthy during testing and the B-2 has almost exactly the same wingspan.

Yup, but the Germans never did, however. In an interview given in 1983, Reimar Horten claimed that the H IX production variant was to incorporate a sawdust, charcoal and glue layer and since the craft was made of wood was going to be completely invisible to radar, which of course it would not have been since radio waves still can detect wooden structures - look at the Mosquito, for example. This flies in the face of all evidence surrounding the aircraft's development. Never was anything written down or expressed as such until Horten made this exclamation - at the time during the war, Horten wrote documents extolling the virtues of his flying wing ideas as combat aircraft but not once mentioned radar absorbing materials or even its small profile as a deterrent to detection. The Germans never investigated such claims either - the idea simply didn't occur to them regarding this aircraft.

it's a nice idea, but Horten was using his retrospectoscope in 1983 and of course everyone wanting a scoop has jumped on the band wagon since.

 

[firedup]

Last time I visited Udvar Hazy Museum , about 2 years ago, the Horten is in pieces in the shop.

Yes it is i was there in 2018 and it was on display in relatively the same condition its been in for a very long time - They say waiting restoration -

 

[firedup]

The NatGeo special was/is titled " Hitlers Stealth fighter " It is a nonflying full scale replica that is hanging in the San Diego Museum of Space and Flight - One of the main points in the show was to test its radar signature with the same frequencies as English Chain Home Radar that was utilized in WW 2. They also did their best to replicate the paint/coating to test its actual radar absorption properties.If i remember they came up with if it was on the deck at 50' above the water crossing the Channel at 1,000km hr the English had it was either 6 or 8 minutes to scramble and intercept before it was on them.Even if they did manage to get anything into the air it would've run away from anything then flying very quickly - The show states the Germans test flew a prototype in a mock dogfight with an ME 262 and it outperformed the 262 across the board. Its definately worth seeing -

 

[nuuumannn]

Its definately worth seeing -

Yeah, nah. Might give it a pass. That's all very fascinating but again, it's perpetuating a myth.

 

[firedup]

Yup, but the Germans never did, however. In an interview given in 1983, Reimar Horten claimed that the H IX production variant was to incorporate a sawdust, charcoal and glue layer and since the craft was made of wood was going to be completely invisible to radar, which of course it would not have been since radio waves still can detect wooden structures - look at the Mosquito, for example. This flies in the face of all evidence surrounding the aircraft's development. Never was anything written down or expressed as such until Horten made this exclamation - at the time during the war, Horten wrote documents extolling the virtues of his flying wing ideas as combat aircraft but not once mentioned radar absorbing materials or even its small profile as a deterrent to detection. The Germans never investigated such claims either - the idea simply didn't occur to them regarding this aircraft.

it's a nice idea, but Horten was using his retrospectoscope in 1983 and of course everyone wanting a scoop has jumped on the band wagon since.

The show did come up with that the model did produce a reduced signature - i think it was 20% less than a conventional fighter of the time - mostly due to the reduced frontal area.I think they also stated the results of the coating was inconclusive whether or not it did actually absorb radar - The fact that they were onto this at that time and were experimenting with it on an aircraft that revolutionary i think speaks volumes.

 

[firedup]

Two Horten flying wing gliders in Argentina, where Reimar Horten went after the war and built several aircraft designs. The I.Ae-41 Urubu on display at the Museo Nacional Aeronautica, Buenos Aires.

View attachment 570309Urubu

The Horten Alita prone position glider, which never flew.

View attachment 570310Horten II

View attachment 570311Horten I

A Horten H II Habicht on display at the Deutsches Technic Museum, Berlin.

View attachment 570312Horten ii

View attachment 570313Horten i



I haven't watched the show, but I hope it doesn't perpetuate the myth that the Ho IX was designed with 'stealth' in mind, because it wasn't. One of the surviving Hortens said as much in an interview in the 70s, but it has never been corroborated by any contemporary documentation. It's a bit of a have that gets perpetuated by the media every now and then - Fake news to quote an overused phrase.

It does'nt perpetuate a myth - I think it was Lockheed that did the build put it on their pole out in the desert and painted it with the same frequencies as the English used in Chain Home Radar and the results are what they came up with -

 

[nuuumannn]

The fact that they were onto this at that time and were experimenting with it on an aircraft that revolutionary i think speaks volumes.

But the Germans weren't building this for its radar absorbent properties. This idea of special coating was a fabrication thought up in retrospect by Horten; it was not considered at the time and not applied to the prototypes, nor has any evidence been found of its application in contemporary paperwork, so again, you are being suckered into something that didn't happen and that the programme is unashamedly suggesting might have.

It does'nt perpetuate a myth

You're not reading my posts, are you. It is perpetuating a myth that it was developed with stealth in mind, because it wasn't. You can make whatever assumptions you like after the fact, but it doesn't make the idea any more a real prospect, as, like I've repeatedly said, the Germans did not build it with radar absorbent properties in mind.

 

[firedup]

But the Germans weren't building this for its radar absorbent properties. This idea of special coating was a fabrication thought up in retrospect by Horten; it was not considered at the time and not applied to the prototypes, nor has any evidence been found of its application in contemporary paperwork, so again, you are being suckered into something that didn't happen and that the programme is unashamedly suggesting might have.

All i'm saying is keep an open mind and see their test results

 

[nuuumannn]

All i'm saying is keep an open mind

Let's not bring religion into it.

 

[pgf_666]

I saw the show in question--they were clear tht the stealthiness of the design was coincidental--the intakes, for instance, are a major source of radar reflections toward the target--but real. They concluded that, along with it's speed, it would probably reduce the reaction time--the time you had from detection to time-on-target--subtracting the time to scramble the defense--to negative numbers. It would have been a bit like a V-1 that could maneuver, you'd have needed a large number of standing patrols to have a chance of interception before it hit its target.

So, rolling a 7 on your first try at Craps is pure luck--you still don't argue.