How did the Martlets rate against the European aircraft?

oldcrowcv63 · Oct 28, 2012

nuuumannn said:
Take off run was 280 yd (160 yd into a 230 kt wind)

YIKES!!! I know it's just a typo but it conjured images of a Martlet heading into a Cat 5+ Hurricane/Cyclone/Typhoon or worse, a tornado. I think the take off run into such a wind would be quite abbreviated. Like maybe 0.5 yards?

also, I suspect the capacity of the drop tank was reversed and should be 52 gallons, not 25.

Although more seriously, I find it difficult to believe any text would claim that Wildcat IVs were equivalent to the F4F-4 and were generally similar to the F4F-3, unless by generally similar it meant they had about the same appearance. The performance of the -3, which the RN never saw except perhaps in stateside training , was significantly superior to the -4 and any subsequent mark until the advent of the FM-2 and even in that case I believe the -3 performed better at altitude.

RCAFson · Oct 28, 2012

oldcrowcv63 said:
YIKES!!! I know it's just a typo but it conjured images of a Martlet heading into a Cat 5+ Hurricane/Cyclone/Typhoon or worse, a tornado. I think the take off run into such a wind would be quite abbreviated. Like maybe 0.5 yards?

also, I suspect the capacity of the drop tank was reversed and should be 52 gallons, not 25.

Although more seriously, I find it difficult to believe any text would claim that Wildcat IVs were equivalent to the F4F-4 and were generally similar to the F4F-3, unless by generally similar it meant they had about the same appearance. The performance of the -3, which the RN never saw except perhaps in stateside training , was significantly superior to the -4 and any subsequent mark until the advent of the FM-2 and even in that case I believe the -3 performed better at altitude.

I thought some non folding wing Martlets had the two stage, two speed engine? In any event under 15000ft or so, the generally lighter single stage blower variants had better performance:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f4f/f4f-4-02135.pdf
see page 3, paragraph 5.

Vincenzo · Oct 28, 2012

THe F4F-3 had a 2 stage (maybe 3 speed) engine and had not the folding wing if i remember right but as writed the FAA used this only in training in US

oldcrowcv63 · Oct 29, 2012

RCAFson said:
I thought some non folding wing Martlets had the two stage, two speed engine? In any event under 15000ft or so, the generally lighter single stage blower variants had better performance:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f4f/f4f-4-02135.pdf
see page 3, paragraph 5.

I had not heard that about the early Martlet IIs. For a comparison of the F4F-4 and Martlet F4F-4B, I have to agree, however, the F4F-3 had a slightly lower weight (by about 200 pounds I believe) than the F4F-4B so the latter's low to mid altitude performance would indeed be somewhat similar to that of the F4F-3 with perhaps a slight edge to the -3. I emboldened the simiiar to the F4F-3 part of the sentence because I was sure that version of the aircraft performed significantly better then any subsequent Wildcat or Martlet mark at all altitudes, incorrectly assuming the RN FAA -4B was closer in weight to the USN's -4.

RCAFson · Oct 29, 2012

oldcrowcv63 said:
I had not heard that about the early Martlet IIs. For a comparison of the F4F-4 and Martlet F4F-4B, I have to agree, however, the F4F-3 had a slightly lower weight (by about 200 pounds I believe) than the F4F-4B so the latter's low to mid altitude performance would indeed be somewhat similar to that of the F4F-3 with perhaps a slight edge to the -3. I emboldened the simiiar to the F4F-3 part of the sentence because I was sure that version of the aircraft performed significantly better then any subsequent Wildcat or Martlet mark at all altitudes, incorrectly assuming the RN FAA -4B was closer in weight to the USN's -4.

Well, see:
The Grumman Wildcat in FAA Service by Bruce Archer
and the entry for the Martlet III. Apparently the FAA received at least 40 Martlets with 4 x wing guns, a two stage, two speed engine, and fixed wings. However, even the F4F-3, after armour and SS tanks are added, weighed 7556lbs and still had only 1200hp. I'm not sure if any of the FAA F4F-3s saw combat, but these, prior to adding armour and SS tanks and the 6800lb Martlet I would have been quite spritely.

Vincenzo · Oct 29, 2012

of this Martlet III, 8 would be that lost with hms audacity,

VBF-13 · Oct 29, 2012

stug3 said:
Yes, because certainly no Axis twin or 4 engined AC were EVER shot down ANYWHERE by American planes with those puny .50s.

Thank god the RAF was everywhere with its awesome 20mm to save us.

Re-reading through this thread, I must have missed this; lol!

oldcrowcv63 · Oct 29, 2012

RCAFson said:
Well, see:
The Grumman Wildcat in FAA Service by Bruce Archer
and the entry for the Martlet III. Apparently the FAA received at least 40 Martlets with 4 x wing guns, a two stage, two speed engine, and fixed wings. However, even the F4F-3, after armour and SS tanks are added, weighed 7556lbs and still had only 1200hp. I'm not sure if any of the FAA F4F-3s saw combat, but these, prior to adding armour and SS tanks and the 6800lb Martlet I would have been quite spritely.

Looking at Archer, I am not sure his analysis of the admittedly confusing situation wrt to Grumman production is correct. My understanding, from a variety of sources, is that the first 10 Martlet IIs (w/o folding wings but presumably similarly equipped as either of the the USN production F4F-3 and/or F4F-4s in most other respects is that they were equipped with the export P&W R-1830-S3C4-G engine to power this aircraft with a single-stage, two-speed supercharger. It is my understanding that the P&W 1830-76 was embargoed and so would not have been available to the Martlet IIs or IIIs. I have been attempting to work with the Grumman historical archives to retrieve the earliest production records of the Wildcat Martlet series and it's been a trial. To date they have only sent records for aircraft with USN Bureau Numbers starting in 2/4/41 (I mean February 4, 1941). I do have the records for the early F4F-3A/Martlet III Greek order starting with Bu No. 3875 in 3/18/41 and continuing thru 3904. No other F4F-3As were exported to the FAA as far as I can tell from the records.

My internet connect is being intermittent thanks to the horribly overrated frankin-storm at least here is Sussex county NJ.

VBF-13 · Oct 29, 2012

Fact-check. The F4F-3s were the first Wildcats delivered overseas. They came in too late to be involved in the blitzkrieg over France. But they got a Junkers Ju 88, I believe, over Britain, which was the first recorded victory credited to any Wildcat-type aircraft. Do I check out on those statements? Are they accurate?

RCAFson · Oct 29, 2012

VBF-13 said:
Fact-check. The F4F-3s were the first Wildcats delivered overseas. They came in too late to be involved in the blitzkrieg over France. But they got a Junkers Ju 88, I believe, over Britain, which was the first recorded victory credited to any Wildcat-type aircraft. Do I check out on those statements? Are they accurate?

If we define an F4F-3 as an F4F with a PW two stage, two speed engine and fixed wings, and the F4F-3A as an F4F with PW single stage, two speed engine and fixed wings, then the first Martlets did not meet this criteria as they used Wright Cyclone single stage, two speed engines. I believe the Ju-88 was actually shot down over Scapa flow on Dec 25 1940, as the FAA Martlets were being used to defend the RN's anchorage. The kill was probably scored by a Martlet I.

VBF-13 · Oct 29, 2012

RCAFson said:
If we define an F4F-3 as an F4F with a PW two stage, two speed engine and fixed wings, and the F4F-3A as an F4F with PW single stage, two speed engine and fixed wings, then the first Martlets did not meet this criteria as they used Wright Cyclone single stage, two speed engines. I believe the Ju-88 was actually shot down over Scapa flow on Dec 25 1940, as the FAA Martlets were being used to defend the RN's anchorage. The kill was probably scored by a Martlet I.

Would you happen to know whether those engine-adaptations were made at the factory or overseas after that aircraft shipped? That question is raised on what you just said, as I hadn't known enough, before, to ask it.

Also, forgetting about the engine-change, can it fairly be said that Ju 88 was the first recorded victory of any Wildcat-type aircraft?

Of course, I appreciate all this.

Vincenzo · Oct 29, 2012

RCAFson said:
Well, see:
The Grumman Wildcat in FAA Service by Bruce Archer
and the entry for the Martlet III. Apparently the FAA received at least 40 Martlets with 4 x wing guns, a two stage, two speed engine, and fixed wings. However, even the F4F-3, after armour and SS tanks are added, weighed 7556lbs and still had only 1200hp. I'm not sure if any of the FAA F4F-3s saw combat, but these, prior to adding armour and SS tanks and the 6800lb Martlet I would have been quite spritely.

if you read carefully only 10 of this Martlet III would have the 2 stage engine (the ex greek had a single stage engine)

RCAFson · Oct 29, 2012

VBF-13 said:
Would you happen to know whether those engine-adaptations were made at the factory or overseas after that aircraft shipped? That question is raised on what you just said, as I hadn't known enough, before, to ask it.

Also, forgetting about the engine-change, can it fairly be said that Ju 88 was the first recorded victory of any Wildcat-type aircraft?

Of course, I appreciate all this.

AFAIK, these were all Grumman installed engines.

Yes, AFAIK the first F4F/Martlet kill was 25 Dec 1940.

RCAFson · Oct 29, 2012

Vincenzo said:
if you read carefully only 10 of this Martlet III would have the 2 stage engine (the ex greek had a single stage engine)

Yes, I think you're correct.

VBF-13 · Oct 30, 2012

RCAFson said:
AFAIK, these were all Grumman installed engines.

Yes, AFAIK the first F4F/Martlet kill was 25 Dec 1940.

Thank you, again.

oldcrowcv63 · Oct 30, 2012

RCAFson said:
Yes, I think you're correct.

Vincenzo said:
if you read carefully only 10 of this Martlet III would have the 2 stage engine (the ex greek had a single stage engine)

And because Archer does not mention the embargoed P&W R-1830-76 being supplanted by the aforementioned P&W R-1830-S3C4-G with a single stage supercharger in all export Martlett IIs I remain skeptical regarding the first 10 aircraft being stock F4F-3. I concur all engine mods were done by Grumman AFAIK.

Vincenzo · Oct 30, 2012

i writed would have not only have or had because i'm agree the situation of that is not clear.
however if they were called III they need to be different to II

oldcrowcv63 · Oct 30, 2012

I agree Vincenzo, The II is reputed to have had the P&W R-1830-S3C4-G, WHILE THE III had the R-1830-90. Both with single stage supercharger. Archer makes the claim that both II III had the -90, except for the first 10 of the II which had the -76 and were then reclassified as III. That is counter to everything I have read about Martlet production.

Vincenzo · Oct 30, 2012

Specification http://www.enginehistory.org/P&W/R-1830/R-1830Index.pdf
S3C4-G Ratings TO 1200HP/2700rpm, military 1200/2700/4900ft, 1050/2700/13100, normal 1100/2550/6100, 1000/2550/12600 Fuel 100/130 (possible 95) Weight dry 1492 Prop shaft ratio 16:9 spline 50 Cylinders comp. ratio 6.7:1 Impeller ratio 7.15:1, 8.47:1, Carburetors&Magnetos Optionals, Diameter 48.19 Lenght 63.44 (in the list of installation there are not grumman planes)
-90 Ratings same but NA military and one more normal 1000/2700/14500 Fuel 100, Weight fry 1495, Prop.. same, Cyl... same, Imp... same Diameter 48.19 Lenght 63.41

nuuumannn · Oct 30, 2012

of this Martlet III, 8 would be that lost with hms audacity

There were only four aboard Audacity on its last cruise when it went down. Whether they were IIs or Is that 802 Sqn was equipped with seems to be something of a confusing issue; many books state the aircraft were IIs - as does Eric Brown - as they were 'navalised' i.e. folding wings that the Is were not fitted with as the reason why the Mark IIs went to sea. Audacity did not have a hangar; her aircraft were stored on deck. According to a number of sources I've read however, all the serial numbers quoted associated with these aircraft are Martlet Is, including Brown's (AL254) in which he shot down Fw 200s and Lt Cdr J.M. Wintour, shot down in BJ516 by an Fw 200 on 8 November.

The very first F4F victory was indeed the Ju 88 shot down on Christmas Day by two Martlet Is of 804 Sqn, Hatston, Orkney; Lt L.V.Carter and Sub-Lt Parke were responsible for shooting down the aircraft that belly landed in a bog on Orkney.

Archer makes the claim that both II III had the -90, except for the first 10 of the II which had the -76 and were then reclassified as III. That is counter to everything I have read about Martlet production.

An interesting collection of source material that Archer's listed at the bottom of his missive, but I'm also confused about this too, as the books I have read are contrary to his claim also. As far as I was aware the S3C4-G powered the Mark II.

How did the Martlets rate against the European aircraft?

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