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Weight is important. It has a very big effect on climb rate.Agree with all that except I would say drag mattered maybe more than weight, P-51C weighed 9800 lbs up to 11800, but it was bloody fast. Fw 190A-8, also pretty fast, weighed 9,738 lbs according to one estimate I just hurredly googled
NAA proposed a shorter wing span Mustang I to the British which would be faster, the British would only accept if RoC and take of runs were unaffected, which meant it wasnt acceptedIt seems, just observing anecdotally, that both the sq ft and the span seem significant. That and all the subtleties of streamlining of course. Those fat bodied P-60s were non-starters IMO regardless of the wing.
Thickness also matters a lot ala Hurricane and Typhoon
I read it in a book written by a gentleman of this parish. It was at the time that a certain P-400 that cannot be mentioned was coming into service. or the British, at the time absolute top speed would not be traded for all around utility, the Mustang Mk I was already fast but was heavy, increasing take of runs and decreasing RoC for a small increase in max speed was not a great choice. In view of its future use loaded up with an extra circa 300 gallons of fuel and other "stuff" like oil and Oxygen, it was a great decision.P-51 had such a low-drag that it was kind of a special case, IMO. And with the low drag comes a bit less lift...
There maybe a margin of speed that is needed?Speed was in part a function of altitude. Aircraft with a critical altitude below 20,000' is going to need a LOT of horsepower and very low drag to go over 400 mph. They don't care about the speed at Sea level or 10,000 ft, and the data card doesn't have a convenient way to summarize maneuverability. But it turned out in the operational history that faster planes like the P-39, P-51A, and early P-38 were not necessarily better in combat in terms of outcomes. Which is why the P-40 lingered. Same is true for some other types we've been discussing lately
There maybe a margin of speed that is needed?
The Allison Mustangs were not all that common The A-36s made up just under 30% of production. And British Mustangs were not often used in the fighter role.
The P-XX was not used in the west that much. Even in NA they shunted them off to "quiet" areas, I mean come on, Using single seat fighters with crap for range as anti-sub patrol aircraft? It's speed advantage may not have made up for other short comings.
Speed, climb and range are also somewhat intertwined.
P-40F at 8500lbs was supposed to need 5.4 minutes to reach 15,000ft. and need 34 US gallons to do it (includes warm up and take off, the time does not).
However the same 8500lb P-40F needs 21.4 minutes to reach 25,000ft and needs 56 US gallons to do it. So lets just call it 20 Gallons for that extra 10,000ft of altitude.
Now an 8500lb P-40F is not carrying a drop tank and might have started with only 120 gal in the tanks. That doesn't leave much for a standing patrol, combat or getting back to the base. (how good does a P-40 glide?)
Now you could fill the tanks, fit the drop tank and take off at 9300lbs but now the chart says 29.4 minutes to 25,000ft and 69 gal used. only 13 gallons more used and you have a lot more left. But still Roughly 33% of fuel used to take-off and climb to 25,000ft?
Some of the charts are a little generic and slop over bit but they give an idea. Not saying that things weren't done if they had to but P-40s and P-XX's took a while to reach higher altitudes, sucked up a lot fuel getting there and pretty much flew in straight lines when they got there. At about 2600rpm they were good for around 300-600fpm depending on weight.
I read it in a book written by a gentleman of this parish. It was at the time that a certain P-400 that cannot be mentioned was coming into service. or the British, at the time absolute top speed would not be traded for all around utility, the Mustang Mk I was already fast but was heavy, increasing take of runs and decreasing RoC for a small increase in max speed was not a great choice. In view of its future use loaded up with an extra circa 300 gallons of fuel and other "stuff" like oil and Oxygen, it was a great decision.
From what I read it improved landing by increasing the "sink rate" and reducing the tendency to "float" across the deck, there must have been a trade off with take off climb and altitude performance but 2000BHP can make up or a lot. Many Spitfires were customised with clipped wings, extended wings armament and even radios deleted for low level, high level or PR types but in all cases they were making a trade off, one thing for another.The converse of this decision on the Mustang was IIRC that the FAA decided to 'clip' 8" from the wings of the F4U Corsair, I think to do with fitting it in the ship, but it apaprently suffered no ill effects.
This is the problem with trying to combine charts.According to this in July 1942 a P-40F at 8,450 lbs was still making 1,000 fpm at 25,000', and 530 fpm was at 30,000 ft., which is about the effective limit. Time to 25,000' is listed as a little over 14 minutes. I kind of doubt they used up 1/3 of the fuel just to get there.
They figured it all right. The P-40Fs were not flying at 25,000ft to escort B-26s. Since the B-26 had engines that had critical altitudes of under 15,000ft they flew thousands of feet lower than B-17s/B-24s. Corsica to Anzio is usually under 200 miles. Now the fighters may have wanted 3-6,000ft? more than the bombers. and the P-40F/L were worth 3-4,000 ft more than P-40Ns.Well I don't know the precise details but the P-40Fs were being used to escort B-26s to Sicily from North Africa, and to Sardinia and Corsica from Sicily, and from Naples and later Corsica to Anzio and back (both with and without bombs) sometimes twice a day. So I guess they figured it out.
From what I read it improved landing by increasing the "sink rate" and reducing the tendency to "float" across the deck, there must have been a trade off with take off climb and altitude performance but 2000BHP can make up or a lot. Many Spitfires were customised with clipped wings, extended wings armament and even radios deleted for low level, high level or PR types but in all cases they were making a trade off, one thing for another.
This is the problem with trying to combine charts.
The normal climb to altitude chart combines both the time to altitude and the fuel burn from start up which are obviously different things.
Next problem is trying to reconcile the times quoted with the throttle settings.
In the test you posted they used 2850rpm and 48in (9lbs of boost) for the entire climb. The chart in the manual uses a lower throttle setting.
Now at 2850rpm and 48in the engine is burning about 110 gals an hour. or about 25-26 gallons just for that time to climb. Not quite full throttle. But it seems to take 15-22 gallons just to get off the ground and a few thousand feet of altitude.
Now we run into what the manual says, what they did in certain tests and what they did in the field.
The early/mid 1943 Manual for the P-40F/L says to use 2650rpm and 44.2in for max cruise.
The British used 2850rpm and 48in (9lbs) for up to 30min of climb.
The US never used the British 30 minute ratings in any US manual (?) for any Merlin.
Maybe the pilots in the field used the British limits or something close?
Obviously 2650rpm and 44.2in (7lbs) is going to used less fuel per minute than 2850rpm and 48in. The higher power may actually save fuel slightly by getting to altitude quicker.
The next problem is that unless the planes are in combat they are not using 2850rpm and high boost for flying around at 25,000ft.
They figured it all right. The P-40Fs were not flying at 25,000ft to escort B-26s. Since the B-26 had engines that had critical altitudes of under 15,000ft they flew thousands of feet lower than B-17s/B-24s.
Corsica to Anzio is usually under 200 miles. Now the fighters may have wanted 3-6,000ft? more than the bombers. and the P-40F/L were worth 3-4,000 ft more than P-40Ns.
It seems that the issue with the Allison Mustangs was indeed how the ailerons were set up. This was fixed on the Merlin P-51s with 10, 12 or 15 degree rigging. Ironically, it was tested on a Mustang I that was modified to be an A-36 prototype which also tested 20mm cannon fits, per post #153 in the A-36 picture thread.
Problem is unless we have the performance reports on that particular aircraft and a similarly powered P-40, we're always going to sort of be comparing apples to oranges for one reason on another.
Even comparing the P-51B/D to the XP-40Q is going to be a bit like that, due to the fact that two were production planes and one was experimental. Now if you compare to XP-40Q to the XP-51F/G or its offspring (P-51H, which didn't see active combat in World War II though fighter units in the USAAF were equipped with them prior to August 15th '45), that's a bit more fair in terms of experimental plane vs experimental plane.
Unfortunately, it also shows how far behind the curb the P-40 was by then, and probably that Curtiss/Curtiss-Wright had too many irons in the fire with stillborn programs that amounted to nothing.
For whatever reason, until the Q, the P-40 never seemed to have the "stretch" in capability that the Spitfire and even the Me-109 had.
And given the later -109's issues with that, that's sort of saying something. Though in fairness to the P-40, at least it's handling and overall performance didn't deteriorate (speed and climb just hit a wall), while the -109 suffered pretty badly until it got some of it's mojo back with the late G and K series.
But we do have to be fair in terms of combat performance. The least that can be said of the P-40 was that it held its ground and helped pave the way for better aircraft that came later, just as the Allison Mustangs did and other designs.
I agree, plus most of the issues with the P-40 stem from its engines supercharger, not from the airframe itself.So I would say that ultimately as a fighter type, over the course of the war it did more than hold it's ground.
The Fiat CR.42 was introduced into service in 1939 but it was not alone.But it wasn't like the USAAF made the same mistake that say Italy did with sticking with the Fiat CR 32/42 biplanes when the tide already turned in favor of newer designs.