How good was the soviet air force? (3 Viewers)
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ThomasP
Senior Master Sergeant
Yes and No.
Many of the moderately political posts on this forum provide a great deal of perspective that many members have not previously been exposed to.
Many of the moderately political posts on this forum provide a great deal of perspective that many members have not previously been exposed to.
Any posting in a thread must have non-zero informative content: either some relevant information, or an informative evaluation of that posting. But situational curtsies of politicians are guaranteed not to be relevant information.
This is just another propaganda trick: "we paid the highest price in the war, so we are good, and since you are against us, you don't respect the price we paid, so you are bad". At the same time, NO ONE doubts that Soviet losses were the highest, and that without Soviet efforts the war could have ended with a different result (at least, with different losses for the Allies). All these Churchill/Roosevelt/etc. quotes are well known to anyone familiar with Soviet propaganda or document collections. Nothing can be concluded from them, at least within the framework of a scientific approach.
This is just another propaganda trick: "we paid the highest price in the war, so we are good, and since you are against us, you don't respect the price we paid, so you are bad". At the same time, NO ONE doubts that Soviet losses were the highest, and that without Soviet efforts the war could have ended with a different result (at least, with different losses for the Allies). All these Churchill/Roosevelt/etc. quotes are well known to anyone familiar with Soviet propaganda or document collections. Nothing can be concluded from them, at least within the framework of a scientific approach.
ThomasP
Senior Master Sergeant
re
If I am understanging you correctly, your statements are incorrect in 2 places. I have met many people (both in person and on various forums) who had no idea that the Soviets played such a large part in defeating the Germans. The American Cold War 'rah-rah USA, USA' propaganda machine in this country was quite effective in blinding the masses to some of the international realities of WWII. And while the quotes may be familiar to many people familiar with Soviet propaganda, it does not change that fact that such statements were made, or the intent behind the original statements.
The attempts by our own society to keep the US citizenry ignorant of many aspects of WWII and the Cold War (and not just those concerning the Soviet Union) have had long lasting and adverse effects in our society - and some of those effects are still active.
If I am understanging you correctly, your statements are incorrect in 2 places. I have met many people (both in person and on various forums) who had no idea that the Soviets played such a large part in defeating the Germans. The American Cold War 'rah-rah USA, USA' propaganda machine in this country was quite effective in blinding the masses to some of the international realities of WWII. And while the quotes may be familiar to many people familiar with Soviet propaganda, it does not change that fact that such statements were made, or the intent behind the original statements.
The attempts by our own society to keep the US citizenry ignorant of many aspects of WWII and the Cold War (and not just those concerning the Soviet Union) have had long lasting and adverse effects in our society - and some of those effects are still active.
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Excuse me?
Lack of adequate moderating? There is no need for such arrogance or attacks.
The entire staff here does this voluntarily. We have lives, jobs, and families outside of this forum. None of us is able to be here 24 hours a day/7 days a week. We can't see or moderate everything all the time. That is why we have a report function.
If something needs to be moderated, we have a report function. Report the post and give us a chance to take care of it as soon as we can.
bf109xxl
What is wrong about this post that you had to report it, and then attack the moderation and admin staff over it?
Everything about WW2 was political including Lend Lease.
What is wrong with discussing the political aspect of it, as long as it remains within the context of the historical conflict. Besides these are quotes from historical figures, nothing more.
I see no issue here.
The likelihood of these people reading this forum and exactly this thread is zero. Not approximately, but exactly equals zero.
There are more appropriate forums for discussing politically motivated topics, where such posts should be moved to. Or a new topic should be opened for discussion. I don't want to flip through pages of nonsense to come across a gem of a thought. The forum system is designed for the convenience of substantive discussion, not for the expression of political views.
We could discuss propaganda, stereotypes, etc. in a separate thread. Here we discussed specifically the Soviet Air Force. I am interested in this topic, but not in political nonsense.
That's no reason to rubbish a meaningful discussion in which those who are interested in it took part. This forum is not a tribune for changing public opinion anyway, it facilitates communication of a narrow circle of enthusiasts. And I, as an enthusiast, don't want to spend efforts on filtering political nonsense.
ThomasP
Senior Master Sergeant
re
While it is not primarily intended as a mode of changing public opinion, it has often done so for individuals who participate in the forum. Over the ~20 years since this forum started, it has in fact changed (or at least significantly modified) the opinions of quite a few of the currently active members. Some of us, particularly the younger ones, were not exposed to any non-propagandist information prior to finding this forum (or other forums of similar aspect).
and
While it is not primarily intended as a mode of changing public opinion, it has often done so for individuals who participate in the forum. Over the ~20 years since this forum started, it has in fact changed (or at least significantly modified) the opinions of quite a few of the currently active members. Some of us, particularly the younger ones, were not exposed to any non-propagandist information prior to finding this forum (or other forums of similar aspect).
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special ed
2nd Lieutenant
- 5,690
- May 13, 2018
If I may stick in a moment, I enjoy the comments by those with knowledge of internal USSR politics concerning engine selection, airframe choice and designer banishment. These facts are also political. I suspect those of us members are here because of our historical curiosity as well as the interest in aviation. Although I have many books, and have read most of them, much of what is posted in this forum is "I don't remember that", although I have read it. I lived through WW2, the cold war, and the present events, I learn much from listening to the other side, i.e. non-US.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
People attend this forum for many reasons. Assuming one's own reasons should predominate is, to put it kindly, unrealistic.
Of course, participation in a forum can change a participant's political mind in a certain degree. But it will still be enthusiasts from a rather narrow circle.
All I want is to maximize the informativeness of the discussions and avoid pointless postings with no relevant information. This would make the thread much easier to read, I think many forum members would find it a boon.
I guess I have explained my reaction exhaustively, so I finish the discussion about politically motivated postings on my part. I just want to discuss exclusively the Soviet Air Force in World War II in this thread. I hope for your understanding.
From my point of view, these are just facts without any political coloring.
I try to avoid the discussion on political views, characterizing this or that political system from the point of view of its effectiveness in the course of the historical process. In the Soviet system not everything can be explained by political pressure, many aspects are purely personal - for example, personal dislike. I am trying to show the complexity of the relationships within the Soviet elite that made major decisions (primarily the Soviet Air Force). But I would not like to see a historically correct and as possible unbiased opinion substituted by quoting political leaders, which makes no sense within the scope of a discussion about the Soviet Air Force.
Ernest (Russia)
Airman
- 36
- Jan 28, 2019
These are questions about investments and aircraft orders in the USSR.
"In terms of aluminum production, it was already ahead of France, England, Italy and Canada in 1935." Not the Germany and the USA, yeah. In 1939, the USSR produced more than 48,000 tons of alu alloys. You know that alu was used for thousands tank diesels. But it was not used in life, navy, etc. The USSR in 1939 produced more aircraft than the USA or Germany. Including multi-engine aluminum aircraft.
The commissioning of new aluminum plants in the USSR was delayed. This did not become a priority in advance, partly because in 1937 the government was busy with horror and executions. Alu production in the USSR increased during the war years using its own mines, at a single plant (the second east plant was supposed to produce in 1942, but it came out in 1945). The country is the largest, the geologists worked commendably. Bauxite deposits in the east. But, "244,441 tons of aluminum... and 79,646 tons of silumin were produced during the war years." (the tons accuracy!) This is quite a lot even without imports.
Let me remind you again that my belief is that it is necessary to fight immediately, and not to delay. The main years are the first. By the time of the war, it was possible to have even half as many real planes. However, 800 alu TB-3, 6600 (!) SB (before Blenheim!), and 1500 (!) DB-3 were produced before Barbarossa. Bombers heavier than the DB-3 (Il-4) were not produced, but in the UK it was quite, fighters export to the USSR. A different approach. Whose is better?
Alu fighter designs were requested in 1940, before the invasion. They are not ready. In 1941, Yakovlev made metal Yak-3-first (I-30), Polikarpov - ITP and IDS, Grushin - Gr-1, Sukhoi - Su-1 and OBSh. They were all late. It seems that the "centrally plan" was to build only metal ones, except the training Yak-1UTI (Yak-7 and -9) and the trendy "plastic" LaGG. Imagine if Typhoon wait for ready in the UK with thousands Gladiators.
The leapfrog was such that serial factories worked in three shifts before the war, but one large plant without a task, since they decided what to build there. With an unprecedented number of new projects and an instant change of tasks for plants. Bedlam.
The repair of percale and wooden structures is not simple. The real fighter repair can be viewed in LW. In Russia, the quilted jackets are offended that completely destroyed LW fighters have been restored and it is difficult account of the Soviet aces. In the USSR, fighters were most often lost for non-combat reasons. Infrequent flights and a short service life of the aircraft. Because of their construction, there are few aircraft involved in combat missions. Their indicators depend on the dampness. Fighters with a skin on nails and casein glue could not dive, so they don't need height. Bottom: everyone to alu skin. Even DH and Vickers.
It would be better not so many fighters, but of the better quality in order to preserve the experience of pilots, and not replace the dead with beginners from accelerated education.
Ernest (Russia)
Airman
- 36
- Jan 28, 2019
I will write about what I studied more deeply. After 1941, I'm not so interested.
1. You also have one of the key sins of Soviet historians: they compare the USSR with the whole world. I too, but it's stupid. A country should have allies, not bully neutral countries when war is pending.
Stalin made Romania and Finland to Hitler side. Oil and access to industrial production in Sweden, huge losses due to such "pranks". Or maybe Hitler would not have dared to attack the USSR without these. And Stalin showed weakness in Finland.
I wonder about the Soviet state plans because after 1937 the plan is in one head and is not described anywhere. No one except at that time dared to suggest a plan. Post-Soviet historians speculate on the movies, since Stalin personally approved them.
2. Aviation was especially hit. Until 1937, Stalin rejoiced at the records and awarded them. But he decided to steer aviation himself after looking at his own appointees from the party and the Cheka, who successfully led aviation without even knowing the terms, like Stalin. It's known how he corrected Lazar Kaganovich's speech (three Kaganovich brothers, but two Mikoyans). Aviation is a global fancy. Churchill, again!, even learned to fly before the Great War. The sons of top leaders dream of becoming pilots, Stalin's beloved son is a pilot.
Narcom ("Minister of Aviation") Shakhurin is formerly the secretary of the regional party committee, Kaganovich clan twice successor and winner. He has many deputies, but one, as Stalin's adopted son, is Yakovlev.
3. Yakovlev is from the "former" or "defeatist." That is, the disenfranchised descendant of exploiters. In particular, they were not allowed higher education — all examples are exceptions. Yakovlev studied at a private elite Moscow middle gymnasium, in the center of the country. Tall and handsome, he got together with a fellow student, the adopted daughter of Central Committee Secretary Rudzutak. They built glider models together in the gymnasium. Rudzutak was like Stalin in rank, but in fact he had much less power.
In those years, the USSR created a "people's" movement in support of aviation and weapons of mass destruction (that's right!) — the OSOAVIAKHIM youth society. "Suddenly," the roommate of Rudzutak's underage adopted daughter became the head of the only school design bureau. He worked for a short time at an aircraft factory as an apprentice — this is necessary to clean up the contamination of the origin of the defeatist. Then he graduated from the only Military Aviation Academy and received a youth aviation design bureau at the Moscow OGPU plant No. 39 (Cheka).
There he recruited young defeatists. They stole parts of combat aircraft at the factory to build light record—breaking aircraft, and then - aerolimusines for members of the government. Complaints from the plant's director led to Yakovlev "getting" his new plant near the center of the Moscow megapolis. In his memoirs, he complains that they gave him a bed plant — disrespect. Who should build beds? He boldly wrote complaints to the head of the army, Rykov, his other patron. In honor of Rykov, his brand became AIR — the initials of Rykov, not Rudzutak. The chief of the Air Force, Alsknis, is also his patron, and the plane is also named after him. All his patrons will be shot soon.
Rudzutak and Rykov were the first to be "cleaned". By the way, Rudzutak was literally accused of demanding that subordinate party members bring him young daughters. It was published then in the charges. Whether it was like that is a difficult question. But Yakovlev's wife received a degree in aircraft strength, was smart and insightful, and her colleagues only praise her. And she calls her ex-husband lucky. She quickly left Yakovlev so as not to spoil his life by associating with the enemy of the people, and survived.
Stalin noted the tall young Yakovlev (1906) once during an air show. He call him to talk. When Rykov's connections were "cleaned", Stalin brought Yakovlev closer, and he was not touched. Stalin found Yakovlev a new wife, a record—breaking pilot. The wedding was not delayed.
After 1937, when Tupolev, Petlyakov, Bartini, Neman, Korolev, Myasishchev, Putilov, etc were imprisoned, Kalinin was shot, Grigorovich died soon after, and Polikarpov's I-180 killed Stalin's favorites Chkalov and Suzi, Yakovlev began to play the role of Stalin's adviser in aviation. That is, there were meetings of Stalin's government with the participation of marshals, people's commissars, etc. Yakovlev was often the only one left in the office after them. It is almost unknown what they were talking about. The source is only Yakovlev. But the aviation policy became sudden.
This is one of the many aspects of an important historical process. There are other important ones. For example, relations with the donor countries of aviation technology for the USSR. Yakovlev also participated there as an France expert. I wanted to write a biography of Yakovlev and failed. It's not so easy if you look and see, rather than projecting generalizations.
1. You also have one of the key sins of Soviet historians: they compare the USSR with the whole world. I too, but it's stupid. A country should have allies, not bully neutral countries when war is pending.
Stalin made Romania and Finland to Hitler side. Oil and access to industrial production in Sweden, huge losses due to such "pranks". Or maybe Hitler would not have dared to attack the USSR without these. And Stalin showed weakness in Finland.
I wonder about the Soviet state plans because after 1937 the plan is in one head and is not described anywhere. No one except at that time dared to suggest a plan. Post-Soviet historians speculate on the movies, since Stalin personally approved them.
2. Aviation was especially hit. Until 1937, Stalin rejoiced at the records and awarded them. But he decided to steer aviation himself after looking at his own appointees from the party and the Cheka, who successfully led aviation without even knowing the terms, like Stalin. It's known how he corrected Lazar Kaganovich's speech (three Kaganovich brothers, but two Mikoyans). Aviation is a global fancy. Churchill, again!, even learned to fly before the Great War. The sons of top leaders dream of becoming pilots, Stalin's beloved son is a pilot.
Narcom ("Minister of Aviation") Shakhurin is formerly the secretary of the regional party committee, Kaganovich clan twice successor and winner. He has many deputies, but one, as Stalin's adopted son, is Yakovlev.
3. Yakovlev is from the "former" or "defeatist." That is, the disenfranchised descendant of exploiters. In particular, they were not allowed higher education — all examples are exceptions. Yakovlev studied at a private elite Moscow middle gymnasium, in the center of the country. Tall and handsome, he got together with a fellow student, the adopted daughter of Central Committee Secretary Rudzutak. They built glider models together in the gymnasium. Rudzutak was like Stalin in rank, but in fact he had much less power.
In those years, the USSR created a "people's" movement in support of aviation and weapons of mass destruction (that's right!) — the OSOAVIAKHIM youth society. "Suddenly," the roommate of Rudzutak's underage adopted daughter became the head of the only school design bureau. He worked for a short time at an aircraft factory as an apprentice — this is necessary to clean up the contamination of the origin of the defeatist. Then he graduated from the only Military Aviation Academy and received a youth aviation design bureau at the Moscow OGPU plant No. 39 (Cheka).
There he recruited young defeatists. They stole parts of combat aircraft at the factory to build light record—breaking aircraft, and then - aerolimusines for members of the government. Complaints from the plant's director led to Yakovlev "getting" his new plant near the center of the Moscow megapolis. In his memoirs, he complains that they gave him a bed plant — disrespect. Who should build beds? He boldly wrote complaints to the head of the army, Rykov, his other patron. In honor of Rykov, his brand became AIR — the initials of Rykov, not Rudzutak. The chief of the Air Force, Alsknis, is also his patron, and the plane is also named after him. All his patrons will be shot soon.
Rudzutak and Rykov were the first to be "cleaned". By the way, Rudzutak was literally accused of demanding that subordinate party members bring him young daughters. It was published then in the charges. Whether it was like that is a difficult question. But Yakovlev's wife received a degree in aircraft strength, was smart and insightful, and her colleagues only praise her. And she calls her ex-husband lucky. She quickly left Yakovlev so as not to spoil his life by associating with the enemy of the people, and survived.
Stalin noted the tall young Yakovlev (1906) once during an air show. He call him to talk. When Rykov's connections were "cleaned", Stalin brought Yakovlev closer, and he was not touched. Stalin found Yakovlev a new wife, a record—breaking pilot. The wedding was not delayed.
After 1937, when Tupolev, Petlyakov, Bartini, Neman, Korolev, Myasishchev, Putilov, etc were imprisoned, Kalinin was shot, Grigorovich died soon after, and Polikarpov's I-180 killed Stalin's favorites Chkalov and Suzi, Yakovlev began to play the role of Stalin's adviser in aviation. That is, there were meetings of Stalin's government with the participation of marshals, people's commissars, etc. Yakovlev was often the only one left in the office after them. It is almost unknown what they were talking about. The source is only Yakovlev. But the aviation policy became sudden.
This is one of the many aspects of an important historical process. There are other important ones. For example, relations with the donor countries of aviation technology for the USSR. Yakovlev also participated there as an France expert. I wanted to write a biography of Yakovlev and failed. It's not so easy if you look and see, rather than projecting generalizations.
Ernest (Russia)
Airman
- 36
- Jan 28, 2019
LaGG and La are mass produced.
Ernest (Russia)
Airman
- 36
- Jan 28, 2019
I'm not going to argue with you yet. That's what I remember. I know. It was necessary to write down that memory is insidious. I am almost sure that the full lists of those sent have not been published anywhere. There are mentions of two surnames, one of which is always Tupolev. Let's say I immediately found another Myasishchev. And in 1937, after all, there was a business trip. There are no good biographies of Lavochkin.
+ Another UPS: I confused Lavochkin and Gurevich here. Gurevich also sent to the USA.
I have looked for this information about him more than once. And Gurevich worked Li-2. I know less about him than about Lavochkin, about whom I know enough for my targets from Rodionov's Chronicle. Forgive me once again. And thank you for your doubt.
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Ernest (Russia)
Airman
- 36
- Jan 28, 2019
I didn't write about the Mosquito literally. I wrote about Comet. I have quoted contemporaries express the hope of overtop aluminum. They did not surpass it, but not all knew about it even in 1941. By the way, I would like to note that they doubted Moskito, but it turned out differently in 1942. And it's not about balsa.
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Ernest (Russia)
Airman
- 36
- Jan 28, 2019
This is just your speculation. And I'm talking about how it could be. Just about the forgotten engines, not about poor Gudkov. In another universe, the project could be made a priority and specialists could be found for the newest Lavochkin Design Bureau.
The Polikarpov Bureau was partly imprisoned, partly torn up by new bureaus, partly dissolved by plants (engineers did not leave Moscow voluntarily). The main thing is that they were afraid to help Polikarpov, he could be shot at any moment.
My point is that there are too many projects, too much passive-aggression.
You've probably read about the ridiculous case of Silvansky. So, Silvansky, unlike Yakovlev, was not a relative of the heads of USSR. This is gossip. Yes, a young, cheeky, handsome man, like an aging Yakovlev. But Yakovlev describes himself. how he, already all-powerful, walked around Sylvansky's failed plane, but did not dare to use the power to help or stop. Silently hated it. And then he took the engineers away. Money and, most importantly, time were wasted by Yakovlev.
Here it is appropriate to recall our colleague, who is confident in the high thinking of Soviet engineers. But Silvansky's engineers would go to great to return from Novosibirsk, where they were not even given housing, to Moscow. And they could harm their leader if they guessed the mood.
But there were also different examples when Yakovlev suddenly got into it and, unbeknownst to the developers who had a deadline, secretly took the plane away from the owners at night to explore the TsAGI tube. Such care.
And why not help Silvansky find a suitable screw? Your preferred Polikarpov was used by screw specialists, not by himself. He waited will develop a new chassis for the I-180. And no one called Polikarpov a dumbass for that. Things were about as uneven as that. I will no surprised that the M-82 turned out to be little known, because someone wanted it. You also know that Lavochkin simply did not let Gudkov into plant, forbidding a pass paper. The point is out there somewhere, I guess. That's slaves live.
Ernest (Russia)
Airman
- 36
- Jan 28, 2019
VIAM historians write a lot about this, but I trust those who accuse them. Neither one nor the other relies on sources, but new researchers mention the failure of supplies of phenolic resin in the spring of 1941. Of course, it is in the import lists.
For example, I do not claim this, in the places you mentioned, formulations from synthesized resin could be created: impregnation and varnishes. The powder plant, in particular, is not a synthetic chemistry plant. The Guess where lied game is a favorite in the USSR.
yulzari
Tech Sergeant
All the allies made their own contribution to liberating the conquered countries from the Axis. The British Commonwealth and France led by choosing to declare war in 1939 to liberate Poland and Czechoslovakia. The French were defeated themselves but the British Commonwealth continued the fight without which no liberations could have happened. The Soviet Union did the combat heavy lifting after they were forced into the war by being attacked by the Axis and the Americans brought their industrial size and strength to the fight when they were forced into the war by the Japanese on the eve of 1942. China had been fighting since 1935.
Without any one of them the war could have easily have been lost. The Allies brought different talents, industries and strategies but all suffered awful losses in battle and, except for America, safe at an ocean away, civilian losses at home.
They each had their own societies and cultures of the day (good and bad) and reflected them in their struggle. The Soviets were no more or less stupid than the others and certainly no less brave. They made their decisions according to the society of the day. Daft or sensible but the individuals were not any less canny than, say, the Americans. They just had to exercise their canniness within their societal limits. They sheer scale of the Soviet Union places an emphasis on numbers more than quality to get some bang somewhere.
The Soviet Air Force was, by the latter part of the war, good at being the Soviet Air Force. Rubbish at being the Royal Air Force or the US air force as they were at being the Soviet Air Force. The test has to be if it was fit for purpose. It's purpose not other air force's purposes.
Without any one of them the war could have easily have been lost. The Allies brought different talents, industries and strategies but all suffered awful losses in battle and, except for America, safe at an ocean away, civilian losses at home.
They each had their own societies and cultures of the day (good and bad) and reflected them in their struggle. The Soviets were no more or less stupid than the others and certainly no less brave. They made their decisions according to the society of the day. Daft or sensible but the individuals were not any less canny than, say, the Americans. They just had to exercise their canniness within their societal limits. They sheer scale of the Soviet Union places an emphasis on numbers more than quality to get some bang somewhere.
The Soviet Air Force was, by the latter part of the war, good at being the Soviet Air Force. Rubbish at being the Royal Air Force or the US air force as they were at being the Soviet Air Force. The test has to be if it was fit for purpose. It's purpose not other air force's purposes.
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