How good was Japanese aviation?

[Rafe35]

That would be "Pudgy", Bogy

He was killed in combat while attempting to snap roll onto the tail of a Japanese fighter without dropping his external fuel (carrying two 160 gallon of gas), that lead McGuire into a flat spin from which he was unable to recover or bail out.

 

[bogy]

Hey, people, what do you think about Saburo Sakai or Hiroyoshi Nishizawa, Tetsuzo Iwamoto, Sada-aki Akamatsu, Takeo Tanimizu, Shoichi Sugita, Kaneyoshi Muto?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I think we just had a misunderstanding bogy and nothing else. It actually happens quite a bit on this forum between people. Any how welcome to the site anyway.

 

[plan_D]

U.S infantry weren't the best, German infantry was and there was a very good reason for that. But keep on topic...if you want to argue about that, start a thread.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Agreed about the thread and agreed about the infantry Plan_D.

 

[bogy]

Yes, I'm agree with that, in infantry American soldiers were the best. They were the best because the gear, training and the spirit. They fought like a team.

But in special assignments The Brit commandos were the best.

German soldier were very discipline man, they obey orders, they were good to, but not as good as Americans and Brit.

 

[plan_D]

No, you've mis-read what I stated. I said the German infantry were the best, they were the best by far. They were aggressive, disciplined and thoughtful.

The only U.S units anywhere near the ability of the German standard infantry were the Rangers and Airborne. The British had the Airborne and Marines in Europe.

The British were the pioneer of special operations and throughout the world there were several experienced British units and specialised units like the SAS, LRDG, Chindits and Commandos...

But in open combat, you cannot beat the German infantry if anywhere nearing equal numbers. If you pitched the 21st Panzer Division against the best Soviet or Allied armoured division on equal numbers, I would put my money on the 21st everytime.

 

[bogy]

No, I am not convince about that. I am thinking of U.S. soldier who fought in Guadalcanal. They louse eny C.O. and they fought without officers and they beat the Jap's. They have a strong spirit.

I remember a story, wrote in a book about Guadalcanal by general in rezerv Grifitt III or something like that. It's about a man, name Mike "the red" and his men. One time they remain without drink and they were go to the jap's positions to stol some. There, they stol all the drink they found bat they put some bombs on the jap's guns and ... they find and stol the underweare of the jap's general.

 

[plan_D]

I don't really care if you're not convinced. The Japanese were clumsy soldiers, they only survived because of Western ignorance to them in the early years.

Look what happened in 1939, in Khalkin-Gol, when the Soviet Union easily defeated the Japanese on open plain. The German troops were superior to every other soldier in World War 2, they wouldn't matter about losing their C.O, they could start the battle without their C.O!

If you want to continue this, then start a thread in WW2 General forum. And I'll tell you some stories about U.S Vs. German actions...

 

[bogy]

No, you've mis-read what I have wrote. I don't speak about jap's soldiers, I have spoke about American soldiers on Guadalcanal

 

[plan_D]

No, I haven't mis-read at all. Guadalcanal had JAPANESE on it, of whom the U.S were fighting.

 

[bogy]

"The Japanese were clumsy soldiers". I have serious doubt about that. In Tarawa Americans have 20.000 men down. In Okinawa they have lost 60.000 men!

I think that japs are good soldiers. Not the best but good.

In war with Germans, Americans have never casualties as they have in Pacific!

 

[plan_D]

The Japanese were clumsy soldiers, especially with the equipment they had. They only have their reputation from fighting to the death, they suffered heavy casualties in the process. They were not efficient soldiers, they were not capable soldiers.

The U.S troops fighting against the Wehrmacht were halted. You cannot base your opinion on losses. The Wehrmacht halted and countered the U.S troops many times with great success. The U.S used fire supremecy against the Wehrmacht, something they could not bring fully to bare on the small islands in the Pacific. The Japanese also had built a vast network of tunnels which led to more hand to hand combat, in which naturally the U.S soldier is stronger.

The Wehrmacht had the greatest soldiers in World War 2. They knew what to do, when to do it and how to do it. They also could fight against any style, having to fight on two fronts against two vastly different fighting styles.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Im with Plan_D on this. I think there is a big misunderstanding here. The US soldiers fought well and good heart but I agree that the German soldiers were the best disiplined and were the best on the ground. Just ask any WW2 allied vet and they will all tell you this. The Wehrmacht was very resourcefull and was a threat until the very end. Look at the Battle of the Bulge. They were extremely outnumbered and almost beat the US back. Yes weather had a lot to do with it, but the Wehrmacht fought very well. Look at the Afrika Korps. Under Rommels command they did miricles at first with just about nothing.

The Japanese inflicted so many casualties on the allies mainly because of the Jungle type warfare.

And bogy one reason why there were more US casualties in the Pacific than in Europe was because the US had been fighting in the Pacific as early as 1942 on land. The US did not land in Europe until 1943 in Italy an N. Afrika.. The war ended in 1945. So lets see Pacific: 3 years of ground fighting, Europe: 2 years of Ground fighting.

 

[Lunatic]

German soldiers were on speed. They handed out amphetimies like candy.

Defense is easier than offense - this holds true in both Europe and the Pacific.

The Japanese has inferior equipment but they still put up a staunch defense once the Banzai charge against machine guns was finally recognized as a total waste (Tarawa, Iwo, Okinawa). Japanese rifles, machine guns, and artillary were all inferior to their American counterparts, and they had no effective anti-tank infantry weapons beyond the satchel charge. To defeat US tanks, they'd burry a man in a hole with a rock and a 500 lbs bomb and have him wait for a tank to drive over the hole!

Given the numerical disadvange, equipment, and the huge firepower advantage provided by the USN in the late island battles in the PTO, I'd say the Japanese did extremely well. Faced with the same conditions there is little doubt German units (or US units for that matter) would have surrendered when Japanese units did not. The Japanese, like the Soviets, placed very little value on individual life, and thus were able to extract losses beyond what the other powers typically could for a given situation.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I have heard of German soldiers being doped up on methamphetamine to give them "superhuman" qualities.

Many of the Wehrmacht's soldiers were high on Pervitin when they went into battle, especially against Poland and France -- in a Blitzkrieg fueled by speed. The German military was supplied with millions of methamphetamine tablets during the first half of 1940. The drugs were part of a plan to help pilots, sailors and infantry troops become capable of superhuman performance. The military leadership liberally dispensed such stimulants, but also alcohol and opiates, as long as it believed drugging and intoxicating troops could help it achieve victory over the Allies. But the Nazis were less than diligent in monitoring side-effects like drug addiction and a decline in moral standards.
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,354606,00.html

And I agree about the Japanese troops as well.

 

[arras]

Plan_D ..

Certainly against the British forces the Japanese aviation went against second hand and out-dated equipment. The IJAAF or IJN didn't meet the Spitfire until 1943!

Actualy already Zeros met Spitfires over Singapore ...and shot them down imediately (as was wroten by Australian pilot there)

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yes but what kind of Spits were they.

 

[plan_D]

Spitfires did not reach the CBI until 1943 - when Spitfire V and VIII arrived.

The German troops were superior to the Japanese in combat. What drugs they were on means nothing - they were tactically capable in every aspect and they did not need their C.O.

The Japanese did not surrender but they also lost with very high loss. Not surrending doesn't always make you a good soldier, especially in a unit. The Wehrmacht troops were the best in the world because, as I've said, they knew where to do it, how to do it, when to do it and they didn't need the guidance of their C.O.

You have to take into account the defensive situation of the Japanese troops. Dense jungle with tunnel networks - had they been in any of the positions the German troops found themselves in, the Japanese would have been crushed.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Agreed on all your points you just made. Many allied veterans will agree with what you just said abou the Wehrmacht and it has been documented in interviews.