SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
There go my plans for world domination. Curses, foiled again.
How to bail out from a bomber (B-24)?
- Thread starter uhebeisen
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T Bolt
Colonel
Sorry for the delay but here's a paragraph from page 10 of B-24 Liberator by Steve Birdsall.
Here he is quoting Lt. Robert Carlin who flew 32 missions with the 747th sq. 456 BG
Here he is quoting Lt. Robert Carlin who flew 32 missions with the 747th sq. 456 BG
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MIflyer
1st Lieutenant
That sounds like the same story I read. Now, note that in the B-24 manual they say you have to move a couple of red levers. I assume that was some kind of safety device to keep the doors from being a trap.
T Bolt
Colonel
I took a ride on Witchcraft 7 or 8 years ago and took this picture of the lower nose compartment.
It was taken from the door in the forward bulkhead of the bomb bay looking forward just before I crawled through to the bombardiers station. The bright lighted area is the open wheel nose gear bay with the nose gear mounting framework above. The flat floor to the right is where you crawl to get around the nose gear to the bomb sight and nose turret. The flight deck is the ceiling above and at the very left of the frame you can just see the edge of what I believe is the auxiliary power unit.
I posted a thread here after the ride with a whole lot more pictures if anyone is interested
It can be found here:
A Ride on Witchcraft
It was taken from the door in the forward bulkhead of the bomb bay looking forward just before I crawled through to the bombardiers station. The bright lighted area is the open wheel nose gear bay with the nose gear mounting framework above. The flat floor to the right is where you crawl to get around the nose gear to the bomb sight and nose turret. The flight deck is the ceiling above and at the very left of the frame you can just see the edge of what I believe is the auxiliary power unit.
I posted a thread here after the ride with a whole lot more pictures if anyone is interested
It can be found here:
A Ride on Witchcraft
I am asking this because I am following a story where the bomb bay door was jammed and only the camera hole could be used
Just found this thread...apologies, I am not very active on here at the present time
... and would like to offer some info.
I am both fortunate and humbled to have logged over 150 plus flights in 'Witchcraft during my time on Tour since 2013.
Regarding the Bomb Bay as an emergency exit as covered in the various documents added to this thread, I find it unlikely that a door jam would stop the crew from using it as an escape route. You will be aware that the Bomb Bay on the '24 is not a single item and it does swing open or closed as on the B-17. It is covered in flight by roller shutters that are hydraulically opened on guide rails external to the fuselage.
These shutters are big and are essentially in 4 sections but operated as two so you have essentially, 4 potential areas to drop from the bomb bay itself. If one shutter was jammed, the other side would probably still open even if only a small way. The shutters are 'flimsy but sturdy enough to withstand the windblast while in flight.
They are not however, strong enough to support any body standing on them. They are designed to give-way with a force greater than 100lbs being applied. Standard crew weight for any WW2 USAAF 'Warbird is 200lbs and this is stencilled on the side of every aircraft. For the '24, its a total 2000lbs. This was arrived at by averaging the weight of the kids flying and their flight equipment such as chute / oxygen stuff etc etc. Any member of the crew could jump from the bomb bay catwalk and drop the approx 1 foot onto any of the four section of shutter and it would 'fail' and they would exit the aircraft.
A major part of my pre-flight safety brief to riders is explicitly explaining that under no circumstances are they to attempt to stand on, or reach down and pick for example a dropped camera, any part of the bomb bay shutter as quite simply they will be on the ground before we are !!. The story regarding a bomb bay door...singular...is inaccurate, sorry.
One engine pulled a plume of smoke behind it
This is not necessarily a major issue and would depend on the color of the 'smoke'. There is a saying that Warbird operator use...Black = Go Back, Blue = You're screwed and Grey = is OK. It only takes a push-rod tube seal to start to break down either by natural age or perhaps flak damage and your motor will start streaming grey smoke like its on its last legs...looks far more alarming than it actually is. Remember that the radials used will continue to make power even if they have lost a cylinder and if you are in the combat zone, you keep the damn thing running short of a catastrophic failure !
'The bomb bay couldn't be used to bail out therefore all crew members had to leave through the 'main entrance' at the end of the plane'.
Simple hogwash and probably only added to make the story more 'exciting. There are many ways to leave a '24 in flight irrespective of how its been shot up or how many engines are working.!
'The crew in the nose compartment had to be careful where they stepped; the nosegear doors were effectively a trap door. One B-24 pilot described a formation flight in which one airplane's nose gunner had relaxed by laying atop the doors, his parachute for a pillow. He fell through the doors, followed by the magazine he had planned to read - and his parachute.
Bulls*t !. If this was at working altitude, he'd be on oxygen and the hoses ain't long enough for that party trick !!!. If it was on the way back over friendly territory and at a lower altitude then if someone did fall from the nose door...was he pushed or did he jump ? !. This would depend on the '24 model. On the J model front gear doors will open with very little pressure added. On 'Witchcraft the are painted bright red on the inside with the word Danger in white in very big letters. Again, this is part of my safety brief that these doors will not support a person in flight and ditto...they'll be on the ground before again scenario. Whilst it may be physically possible to lay 'across the doors as there is maybe just enough room to squeeze under the nose wheel in the retracted position, wearing full flying kit would make it a no-no so again fabricated for the story. However...and it is a big however !....it is perfectly plausible to lay alongside the nose wheel on the crawlway tunnel to get to the front turret / bomb aimers position. But again you would have to crawl to the end of the tunnel to access the doors due to internal bracing. At the end of the tunnel, you have to take great care not stand on the doors as you get up from the from the crawling position to access the turret as you have to cut across diagonally to the left from the tunnel end. There is no way to lay either across or longitudinally on the doors without being a contortionist. As an aside, when stationary on display at various tour stops, I know of one volunteer who would disappear for an occasional nap by laying in the front tunnel as he was out of site and in a section with no ground access to public. Used to take great delight and walking up the right hand side of Witchcraft just under the cockpit and smacking the palm of my hand on the fuselage where his would be...usually followed by some choice words emanating from the inside !..
' I do know there was a quick release for the nose gear that would jettison the entire system and clear it for use for bailing out.'
Really ?...I've never seen that or heard of it. You don't jettison the nose wheel assembly on a '24 full-stop !. You may be getting confused with the emergency procedure to lower the nosewheel manually in the event of a hydraulic failure...I can walk you through that procedure as I have to know and fully understand the process !...but it wouldn't give you any more room to jump as the wheel would block most of the opening. If you have any documentation re throwing the whole assembly...or even part of it overboard !.... I'd like to see it please if you can find it.
'I've never heard of that - do you have a reference? Maybe Gary (GEEDEE) has some information, he flies on "Witchcraft.".
Sorry I'm late !
I'll dig out some pics showing the nose section of the J model 'Witchcraft
Just found this thread...apologies, I am not very active on here at the present time
... and would like to offer some info.I am both fortunate and humbled to have logged over 150 plus flights in 'Witchcraft during my time on Tour since 2013.
Regarding the Bomb Bay as an emergency exit as covered in the various documents added to this thread, I find it unlikely that a door jam would stop the crew from using it as an escape route. You will be aware that the Bomb Bay on the '24 is not a single item and it does swing open or closed as on the B-17. It is covered in flight by roller shutters that are hydraulically opened on guide rails external to the fuselage.
These shutters are big and are essentially in 4 sections but operated as two so you have essentially, 4 potential areas to drop from the bomb bay itself. If one shutter was jammed, the other side would probably still open even if only a small way. The shutters are 'flimsy but sturdy enough to withstand the windblast while in flight.
They are not however, strong enough to support any body standing on them. They are designed to give-way with a force greater than 100lbs being applied. Standard crew weight for any WW2 USAAF 'Warbird is 200lbs and this is stencilled on the side of every aircraft. For the '24, its a total 2000lbs. This was arrived at by averaging the weight of the kids flying and their flight equipment such as chute / oxygen stuff etc etc. Any member of the crew could jump from the bomb bay catwalk and drop the approx 1 foot onto any of the four section of shutter and it would 'fail' and they would exit the aircraft.
A major part of my pre-flight safety brief to riders is explicitly explaining that under no circumstances are they to attempt to stand on, or reach down and pick for example a dropped camera, any part of the bomb bay shutter as quite simply they will be on the ground before we are !!. The story regarding a bomb bay door...singular...is inaccurate, sorry
.One engine pulled a plume of smoke behind it
This is not necessarily a major issue and would depend on the color of the 'smoke'. There is a saying that Warbird operator use...Black = Go Back, Blue = You're screwed and Grey = is OK. It only takes a push-rod tube seal to start to break down either by natural age or perhaps flak damage and your motor will start streaming grey smoke like its on its last legs...looks far more alarming than it actually is. Remember that the radials used will continue to make power even if they have lost a cylinder and if you are in the combat zone, you keep the damn thing running short of a catastrophic failure !
'The bomb bay couldn't be used to bail out therefore all crew members had to leave through the 'main entrance' at the end of the plane'.
Simple hogwash and probably only added to make the story more 'exciting. There are many ways to leave a '24 in flight irrespective of how its been shot up or how many engines are working.!
'The crew in the nose compartment had to be careful where they stepped; the nosegear doors were effectively a trap door. One B-24 pilot described a formation flight in which one airplane's nose gunner had relaxed by laying atop the doors, his parachute for a pillow. He fell through the doors, followed by the magazine he had planned to read - and his parachute.
Bulls*t !. If this was at working altitude, he'd be on oxygen and the hoses ain't long enough for that party trick !!!. If it was on the way back over friendly territory and at a lower altitude then if someone did fall from the nose door...was he pushed or did he jump ? !. This would depend on the '24 model. On the J model front gear doors will open with very little pressure added. On 'Witchcraft the are painted bright red on the inside with the word Danger in white in very big letters. Again, this is part of my safety brief that these doors will not support a person in flight and ditto...they'll be on the ground before again scenario. Whilst it may be physically possible to lay 'across the doors as there is maybe just enough room to squeeze under the nose wheel in the retracted position, wearing full flying kit would make it a no-no so again fabricated for the story. However...and it is a big however !....it is perfectly plausible to lay alongside the nose wheel on the crawlway tunnel to get to the front turret / bomb aimers position. But again you would have to crawl to the end of the tunnel to access the doors due to internal bracing. At the end of the tunnel, you have to take great care not stand on the doors as you get up from the from the crawling position to access the turret as you have to cut across diagonally to the left from the tunnel end. There is no way to lay either across or longitudinally on the doors without being a contortionist. As an aside, when stationary on display at various tour stops, I know of one volunteer who would disappear for an occasional nap by laying in the front tunnel as he was out of site and in a section with no ground access to public. Used to take great delight and walking up the right hand side of Witchcraft just under the cockpit and smacking the palm of my hand on the fuselage where his would be...usually followed by some choice words emanating from the inside !.
.' I do know there was a quick release for the nose gear that would jettison the entire system and clear it for use for bailing out.'
Really ?...I've never seen that or heard of it. You don't jettison the nose wheel assembly on a '24 full-stop !. You may be getting confused with the emergency procedure to lower the nosewheel manually in the event of a hydraulic failure...I can walk you through that procedure as I have to know and fully understand the process !
...but it wouldn't give you any more room to jump as the wheel would block most of the opening. If you have any documentation re throwing the whole assembly...or even part of it overboard !.... I'd like to see it please if you can find it.'I've never heard of that - do you have a reference? Maybe Gary (GEEDEE) has some information, he flies on "Witchcraft.".
Sorry I'm late !
I'll dig out some pics showing the nose section of the J model 'Witchcraft
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MIflyer
1st Lieutenant
First, I did not make it up. Second, it appears they were not on a combat mission so were at lower altitude. I do not think they lay back and read magazines on combat missions.
I did not make that up, either. It is in the original WWII manual.
First, I did not make it up. Second, it appears they were not on a combat mission so were at lower altitude. I do not think they lay back and read magazines on combat missions.
Where does it say I said you made it up ? If you had added the additional information then I...like I would imagine the majority of people reading !...would not jump to a conclusion that they where on a bombing mission as these kind of training sorties are not generally discussed / mentioned. If this was on a navigation or crew training ops then that would account for a crew member not being at his correct position.
There are holes in story !
You have to remember that the pilot / co-pilot cannot see into the front compartment. The only person who can corroborate that story would be the bombardier who is also stationed 'up front' on flying duties. He would also know that these doors are a bail out route and I find it difficult to understand that he would watch a crew mate do something dangerous. It's a bit like you driving down the interstate with your friend riding the hood...you both know its against the rules !
Did the pilot...who would have been concentrating on station keeping while in formation as mentioned in the text, see a body fall from the corner of his eye and assume he fell from the nose wheel doors ?
Trust me, there is no room for more that two combat equipped people in the nose of the '24. We limit it to 3 modern day dressed people...shorts / t shirt etc and that is also dependant on physical size.
I did not make that up, either. It is in the original WWII manual.
Like I said would appreciate sight of that statement. Do you have a copy of the Manual or do you know which version and type it its listed in.
There are 7 sections in one manual, there is the separate pilot maunual, there is the erection manual and not forgetting field service bulletins.
Please advise with the understanding that if I am incorrect, then I will without doubt apologise having learnt something new !
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Thanks for checking in, Gary!
No worries mate...mustn't leave it soo long next time !
OK so I've trawled the various manuals I have for the '24 and nowhere does it say you can jettison the nosewheel. I am in contact with current '24 aircrew and maintenance facilities to confirm this.
With respect, I'd like to offer two possibilities that may have been mistaken in reading and remembering a particular phrase.
1. In part 7 of the main '24 Manual it does quote "In late model airplanes the nosewheel can be extended manually in this manner. Pry open up-latch and depress drag strut to hold lock open, then disconnect lock mechanism with quick disconnect pin. Gear can be pushed over-board by lifting up and forward on the top of oleo cylinder. Gear will fall out and lock down. Perhaps it was thought this means the nose gear is in fact dumped from the airplane by using the words 'over-board' and 'gear will fall out'....but note the last sentence where the gear 'will lock down'.
2. Apart from loose stuff like the guns and ammo...oh, and the bombs.. the only major assembly that can be jettisoned is the Ball-turret itself and that would certainly leave a large hole to jump thru. This may be necessary if the ball is damaged and cannot be raised up into the fuselage before landing...assuming you've got the ball gunner out first !. This takes a practiced Flight Engineer a good 10 minutes with help !.
Of interest, in the B-17 notes it does say that care should be taken and that the guy undoing the final bolt should held firmly by another crew member so he doesn't follow the turret out !.
I confirm that the '24 cannot either take off or land with ball turret lowered !.
Standing by !
With respect, I'd like to offer two possibilities that may have been mistaken in reading and remembering a particular phrase.
1. In part 7 of the main '24 Manual it does quote "In late model airplanes the nosewheel can be extended manually in this manner. Pry open up-latch and depress drag strut to hold lock open, then disconnect lock mechanism with quick disconnect pin. Gear can be pushed over-board by lifting up and forward on the top of oleo cylinder. Gear will fall out and lock down. Perhaps it was thought this means the nose gear is in fact dumped from the airplane by using the words 'over-board' and 'gear will fall out'....but note the last sentence where the gear 'will lock down'.
2. Apart from loose stuff like the guns and ammo...oh, and the bombs
.. the only major assembly that can be jettisoned is the Ball-turret itself and that would certainly leave a large hole to jump thru. This may be necessary if the ball is damaged and cannot be raised up into the fuselage before landing...assuming you've got the ball gunner out first !. This takes a practiced Flight Engineer a good 10 minutes with help !. Of interest, in the B-17 notes it does say that care should be taken and that the guy undoing the final bolt should held firmly by another crew member so he doesn't follow the turret out !.
I confirm that the '24 cannot either take off or land with ball turret lowered !.
Standing by !
- Thread starter
- #91
uhebeisen
Airman
thanx Glenn for this information,
I haven't been here for a while since the discussions turned over to British bombers and where to bail out positions.
Regarding my question and my story I'm following: I have collected almost any stories about that mission. The situation for the crew must be dramatic at least. From Munich (their target for the mission) up to the Swiss boarder I assume there were 25 to 35 minutes where they didn't know if the plane would crash or if they could do an emergency landing. Over Munich, after being hit by Flak, the navigator left the plane (without orders) through the front wheel door. And while the door(s) were open all the maps were blown away.
The stories of the survivors also are telling that over Switzerland all crew members (except the pilot and copilot) left the plane through the camera hatch at the end of the plane. It is also mentioned that two gunners were injured (leg, arm).
Therefore it doesn't matter about the bomb bay doors and their function (hydraulic, manually).
My understandig is, that the camera hatch - compared to the bomb bay doors - is quite narrow. And when the copilot was leaving the plane as the last person at the camera hatch it could be that he hit somewhere and lost consciousness.
Any idea how the emergency exit (forward of the dorsal turret) is opened?
Swede Ware
Airman
Let me try this...my father was a nose gunner on a J model with the 494th, Kelly's Kobras. He explained it to me as....if you gotta get out you gotta get out. The nose was a really bad place to be if the clock was running and the plane was anything but stable. His problem was either the bombardier or navigator had to release the armor doors so he could slide open the turret doors and roll out backwards. Peel off the flack vest while the other two could manually unlock the nose wheel and kick it down. Then grab the chutes, clip them on and slide out the opening. Now as far as accidentally falling out, if you look at the position of the nose gear and the space under to get at the gear doors, you would have to be determined, and small to accomplish that feat. Dad said since the missions were long over the Pacific no matter where they were going, he and the other two a lot of times had a piece of plywood they would set on the gear and play cards or spread a couple blankets together and sleep.Now, as far as using the bomb bay, as long as there was power to throw the doors open and the plane was somewhat stable, dropping out was a breeze, so to speak. A number of years ago at the World Freefall Convention in Rantoul Ill. we had the chance to jump both the B-17 and B-24 that were brought in. Both were a blast to jump. Both only required you to tuck up clearing the doors and the center racks. But, this was a controlled and fun jump, not flames and out of control. As I see the only crewman that had it the easiest would have been the B-17 tail gunner and the -24 waist gunners with that huge hatch in the tail. With over 1500 jumps out of a number of aircraft from a bi plane to a 727 airliner I damn sure would not have wanted to go through what those air crews had to contend with. Manuals are one thing and reality is something else!
