How to prepare Luftwaffe for Barbarossa if accurate intel on Soviet forces?

[Koopernic]

Excluding the Jews, they did. Two of my great uncles in law served with Ukrainian units in the German army. They had the tattoos to prove it.

I believe 50,000 Jews served in the Wehrmacht. Some openly practising their faith. The Nuremberg Laws automatically gave exemption to any Jew that had earned an Iron Cross and his family, any that was only 1/4. Even these requirements could be over ruled by the authorities or Hitler personally. There are complex and nuanced aspects to this. Even the head of Luftwaffe procurement, Erhard Milch had a shadow cast over him because of a Jewish mother and that was over ruled by Goering. Most Germans lived in smaller towns, most German Jews lived in bigger towns or cities. This whole field is used as a modern day political and ideological rhetorical football and we are unlikely to see what ordinary people at the time felt, saw and experienced. It's why its best to stay clear of it.

 

[pbehn]

I believe 50,000 Jews served in the Wehrmacht. Some openly practising their faith. The Nuremberg Laws automatically gave exemption to any Jew that had earned an Iron Cross and his family, any that was only 1/4. Even these requirements could be over ruled by the authorities or Hitler personally. There are complex and nuanced aspects to this. Even the head of Luftwaffe procurement, Erhard Milch had a shadow cast over him because of a Jewish mother and that was over ruled by Goering. Most Germans lived in smaller towns, most German Jews lived in bigger towns or cities. This whole field is used as a modern day political and ideological rhetorical football and we are unlikely to see what ordinary people at the time felt, saw and experienced. It's why its best to stay clear of it.

Hitler liked cricket, but never played the game, you are batting on a sticky wicket. Most Germans lived in Germany and the number of Germans living in big cities in Germany massively outnumbered Jews living anywhere in Germany be it a big city or a village. One house I stayed in in rural Germany was full of pictures painted by a Jewish man who was sheltered by the parents of the people I rented a room from, the only way he could pay for his shelter. I met enough Germans while I was in Germany to know what they thought and felt, when I first went there, there were many old guys in the bars who had been in the military in WW2.

 

[TheMadPenguin]

I met enough Germans while I was in Germany to know what they thought and felt, when I first went there, there were many old guys in the bars who had been in the military in WW2.

I referred, folks, to the Wehrmacht alienating vs recruiting the conquered vs liberated peoples of the nations comprising the Soviet generating partisans rather than partners. The Nazi attitude of Deutschland uber Alles was a contributor to the problem.

 

[Koopernic]

I referred, folks, to the Wehrmacht alienating vs recruiting the conquered vs liberated peoples of the nations comprising the Soviet generating partisans rather than partners. The Nazi attitude of Deutschland uber Alles was a contributor to the problem.

Deutschland uber alles isn't nazi. It's just a national anthem, like any other, predating the Nazi era by 80 years to the point of German unification in 1875 and only means to put it foremost in your heart (rather than a micro principality or some aristocrat). There are a lot of silly anthems, Deutschland uber alles isn't one of them. it's one of those things misrepresented and misunderstood.

 

[TheMadPenguin]

Deutschland uber alles isn't nazi.

Don't miss the point.
DUA was a theme, an anthem, a belief, in time past.
The Nazi conquest made it a death sentence by an iron heel.

It's just a national anthem, like any other, predating the Nazi era by 80 years to the point of German unification in 1875 and only means to put it foremost in your heart (rather than a micro principality or some aristocrat). There are a lot of silly anthems, Deutschland uber alles isn't one of them. it's one of those things misrepresented and misunderstood.

Apparently, the Nazi party misunderstood it; under their hands it justified the destruction of non-german people so German people could inherit. "Germany for Germans" became "WE RULE/REPLACE YOU" (especlially for slavic people).

Anyhow, the L/W need to make more Condors, after correcting the failure-points created by adding military equipment to a passenger liner.

 

[Koopernic]

The first flight date of the Ju 252 seems to have been in October 1941 according to sites such as Junkers Ju 252, Luftwaffe Resource Center - Transports & Utility Aircraft - A Warbirds Resource Group Site and Junkers Ju 252 V1 or the book "The Junkers Ju 52 Story" by Jan Forsgren The Junkers Ju 52 Story.
Although the August 1942 date is certified by Wikipedia, it may relate to the military transport version as the v1, v2 and v3 were built as airliners without armament.

As prototype construction started in July 1940, it might be just possible to order the Ju 252 into production off the drawing board following the success of that method for the Me 210. However, I suggested earlier that the Ju 90 might be a lower risk option.

I think you are correct about the Ju 252 being able to fly earlier. It was deprioritised and altered several times.

The advantages of the aircraft relative to the Ju 52 are:
-It could lift 3 times more (7.5 tons versus 2.0-2.5)
-Its top speed and cruising speed was twice as high (about 278mph versus 150mph)
-Its range with 3 times the cargo was 4 times as high.
-Its range with the cargo (2.0 tons) was nearly 4100 miles.


The doubling of speed would allow increased number of cargo journeys per day and reduced attrition by 50%.

It's worth looking at the difference between the successful Demnyansk Pocket Airlift and the Stalingrad airlift.

Demyansk airflieds were 60km apart, Stalingrad 200 km apart.
Demyansk had 400 Ju 52, Stalingrad 200
Demyansk airfields were secure
Demyansk the Luftwaffe had air superiority and could sweep the short distance clear. At Stalingrad there were often less that 80 fighters available.
Demnyanks was in summer, Stalingrad in winter

One reason for the losses was that the Luftwaffe transport Flotten were attired by the RAF/USAAF over the Mediterranean.

A Ju 252 would be vastly more efficient but would be much harder to shoot down and much easier to escort. The result is that the attrition in the Mediterranean will be much less as well as Demnyansk.

As the Luftwaffe used instructor pilots for it transport crews the Luftwaffe's training problems will reduced.

 

[Koopernic]

Why pick 3, the BV222? What role would this huge flying boat have in Barbarossa? No Me. 323?

There was an adapted land based version of the BV-222 proposed.

 

[Admiral Beez]

There was an adapted land based version of the BV-222 proposed.

Thx. I see it now.

A fleet of these plus Me 323s would have been something to see.

 

[Dimlee]

How many Ukrainians did the Nazi Reich inspire to serve for Stalin for each one recruited to serve against Stalin? My point is that the behavior of the Reich increased the size of the Red Army. I indulge in fantasy to imagine that the Reich could be bleached of its spots by the death of Hitler, so that the eradication of the Poles and Jews was no longer part of the war. As of 3 Sept 1939 there was no saving the Reich.

About numbers.
They are debated endlessly among the post-Soviet historians, but the lower figure of the Soviet citizens in German uniform was around 1 mln and the highest I remember was close to 1,3 mln. This is the total figure, without a split by ethnicity (which is another can of worms in the Russian speaking historical debates).
As for the Reich's behaviour as a motivation factor to join the Red Army (or to abstain of German service) - I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[Dimlee]

But I doubt many peoples from the occupied territories joined the Luftwaffe.

Air Force of KONR (or ROA - Russian Liberation Army): probably 5,000 was the highest figure, including flak units, liaison, etc.
Военно-воздушные силы КОНР — Википедия
(in Russian, sorry).

This man was in charge:
Maltsev, Viktor Ivanovich - TracesOfWar.com
Detailed Russian article:
Мальцев, Виктор Иванович — Википедия

There were definitely other Soviet people serving in LW ground units in many roles. But KONR was the largest force.

 

[Escuadrilla Azul]

I referred, folks, to the Wehrmacht alienating vs recruiting the conquered vs liberated peoples of the nations comprising the Soviet generating partisans rather than partners. The Nazi attitude of Deutschland uber Alles was a contributor to the problem.

A family friend was on the Blue Division (the spanish volunteer division in Heer) and he rembered how much did the russian people love them because they shared the good they could spare with them and treated them as human beings, just the thing that the germans didn't do (mostly) and how different was the russian folk attitude to the germans than for them.

If the germans had managed that situation in other way, perhaps they wouldn't had faced the fierce oposition they faced and the desertion rate in USSR could had been higher. But that wasn't possible in that ideological mindset.

Of course this by itself wouldn't had been enough to defeat the USSR but who knows if it could had managed to cut the partisan problem in the rear and then less logistical problems.

Regarding the LW, I doubt there could any major change with better intel in the 6 montes previous to 22nd June. The writing was already in the wall.

More long range bombers going for strategic objetives and more transports would mean less Stukas and tactical bombers, so the land battles would had been harder to win, with more attrition for the panzers, more time to cover the same distance and a Red Army less beaten able to put more resistance.

 

[Nodeo-Franvier]

If the German can debug Jumo222 they would have more cards to play,but they didn't manage to do that even in 1945.
A German version of Napier or Pratt & Whitney R-2800 would be nescessary.

 

[Denniss]

Jumo 222 was ready for production in 1943 with about 1800-2000PS but was then ordered to be redesigned for more power in the 2500-3000PS range.
They could have had it in late 43 or early 44

 

[TheMadPenguin]

If the German can debug Jumo222 they would have more cards to play,but they didn't manage to do that even in 1945.
A German version of Napier or Pratt & Whitney R-2800 would be nescessary.

We "loaned" them enough R2800's that they could have fully reverse-engineered the whole power-egg of the P-47; after all the Soviets did that to the whole B-29 and R3350!

 

[Shortround6]

We "loaned" them enough R2800's that they could have fully reverse-engineered the whole power-egg of the P-47; after all the Soviets did that to the whole B-29 and R3350!

Actually, while the Soviets did reverse engineer the entire B-29 airframe the engines were developed along a different route. Soviets had purchased a licence to make Wright R-1820 radials in the early 30s. They tried a number of times (3 ?) to build a double cyclone, an 18 cylinder engine, None of them worked very well. The last try (no 4?) was in developement for several years before the B-29s landed in Russia. The TU-4s were powered by this last Soviet attempt at an 18 cylinder engine.

see Shvetsov ASh-73 - Wikipedia

for one view of the development history.

The R-3350 and the ASH-73 both started as 18 cylinder Cyclones but were developed pretty much independently.

 

[TheMadPenguin]

Actually, while the Soviets did reverse engineer the entire B-29 airframe the engines were developed along a different route. Soviets had purchased a license to make Wright R-1820 radials in the early 30s. They tried a number of times (3 ?) to build a double cyclone, an 18 cylinder engine, None of them worked very well. The last try (no 4?) was in development for several years before the B-29s landed in Russia. The TU-4s were powered by this last Soviet attempt at an 18 cylinder engine.

see Shvetsov ASh-73 - Wikipedia

for one view of the development history.

The R-3350 and the ASH-73 both started as 18 cylinder Cyclones but were developed pretty much independently.

OK, so R3800 is a flawed example. L/W should have had sufficient parts to built R2800's in or about July 1943.

 

[Nodeo-Franvier]

Jumo 222 was ready for production in 1943 with about 1800-2000PS but was then ordered to be redesigned for more power in the 2500-3000PS range.
They could have had it in late 43 or early 44

I forgot that Jumo 222 was developed to death or something.

 

[Nodeo-Franvier]

OK, so R3800 is a flawed example. L/W should have had sufficient parts to built R2800's in or about July 1943.

Didn't the Luftwaffe only managed to capture a fighter with that engine in 1944?

 

[Shortround6]

Didn't the Luftwaffe only managed to capture a fighter with that engine in 1944?

Should have captured (or recovered) engines from B-26s or British Lockheed Ventura's well before that. Granted they wouldn't have turbos hooked up to them.
But two speed single stage engines could certainly be compared to the BMW 801.

 

[Shortround6]

I forgot that Jumo 222 was developed to death or something.

This is a matter of contention between a few factions.
Somewhere between 250 and 300 are claimed to have built. However the number of airframes that actually flew with them are about the number of fingers on one hand.
Given the German tendency/proclivity to build small batches of military hardware with odd ball guns and engines the idea that they would have left several hundred airworthy engines sitting in a warehouse for any period of time seems rather unlikely.
Some of the aircraft that got the Jumo 222s went back to BMW 801s in a few later airframes with not very good results. airframes were heavy and the BMW 801s were being pushed hard.
One would think that having a pair of 2000hp engines in a prototype airframe instead of 1700hp engines would be an advantage even if 2500hp was what was wanted/needed.

But, yes, the 2000hp version was sidelined as airframe weight grew and the needed power rose to 2500-3000hp per engine.