Jumo 222 was a wreck from stanpoint of men that were to produce them, and from stanpoint of the men that should be using them. Problems with corrosion, superchargers, connecting rods etc. were the order of the day. People can take a look at the Calum's book and 'Flugmotoren und strahltriebwereke' book for details.
How to prepare Luftwaffe for Barbarossa if accurate intel on Soviet forces?
- Thread starter Admiral Beez
- Start date
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Is it possible for both to be true? Development and testing programmes use a lot of engines and all planes need a number of spare ones.
Shortround6
Lieutenant General
It might be possible but..........
P & W used 8 engines to develop the R-2800 at least to the initial A series which powered the first B-26s. and perhaps 20-30 engines to develop the R-4360 28 cylinder engine to production status.
The American engines, in general, had longer times between overhauls than German engines.
The first four Ju 288s used BMW 801Gs, the next two used Ju 222 A/B engines, the seventh used BMW 801C engines due to a lack of Ju 222s, this was in the summer of 1942. The eighth and ninth Ju 288s got Ju 222 A/B engines and the tenth got BMW 801TJ engines. The 11th and 13th got DB 606 engines, the 12th and 14th got Jumo 222s, the 15th and 16th got DB 606s and all the later ones got DB 610s. Perhaps a He 219 flew with the Ju 222? there seems to be some dispute.
I just looked at the first question again.
"Had by Dec 1940 Hitler, the general staff and RLM been fully aware of the size of the Soviet forces and their production capacity once war was declared, how could the Luftwaffe be better prepared for Barbarossa? The RLM and Luftwaffe has six months to sort out a plan. "
1. LW be better prepared just internally, for its own sake.
or
2. LW be better prepared to contribute to the total war effort.
1. Ignore those "optimists", employ common sense and historical and geographical knowledge... And get ready for the prolonged campaign at vast territory with poor infrastructure in harsh weather conditions.
2. Do everything as above. Study intelligence on the Soviet industry (Germans were well informed since their engineers built a large part of it in the 1930s). Beef up your bomber force and prepare it for the raids against the factories, POL storage sites, power stations, etc. As in real life (raids against Gorky, Yaroslavl, etc. in 1942-1943 or Eisenhammer which never happened) but starting earlier and more intensive and prolonged. Obtain permission to bomb oil production in Grozny and Baku as soon as the range allows.
"Had by Dec 1940 Hitler, the general staff and RLM been fully aware of the size of the Soviet forces and their production capacity once war was declared, how could the Luftwaffe be better prepared for Barbarossa? The RLM and Luftwaffe has six months to sort out a plan. "
1. LW be better prepared just internally, for its own sake.
or
2. LW be better prepared to contribute to the total war effort.
1. Ignore those "optimists", employ common sense and historical and geographical knowledge... And get ready for the prolonged campaign at vast territory with poor infrastructure in harsh weather conditions.
2. Do everything as above. Study intelligence on the Soviet industry (Germans were well informed since their engineers built a large part of it in the 1930s). Beef up your bomber force and prepare it for the raids against the factories, POL storage sites, power stations, etc. As in real life (raids against Gorky, Yaroslavl, etc. in 1942-1943 or Eisenhammer which never happened) but starting earlier and more intensive and prolonged. Obtain permission to bomb oil production in Grozny and Baku as soon as the range allows.
One mystery to me is what Adolf and his people were thinking about? The Russian winter is well known, anyone who has heard of Napoleon knows about it, and Germany has winters too. I was in East Germany when it regularly got down to -20C and a couple of occasions -30 while in the West on the old border it was sub zero Celsius for 4 months. Leningrad, Stalingrad and Moscow are (were) not secret places, it is easy to find out how far they are away from Berlin and how far they are from each other. How did they plan to spend the winter?
Escuadrilla Azul
Tech Sergeant
- 2,127
- Feb 27, 2020
Well, they didn't think that they had to plan to spend the winter in the outskirts of Moscow or Leningrad or Sebastopol.
The mood in the highest command was more "when the panzers start rolling, the soviets start shitting" and the whole USSR would colapse.
That was Adolf and Herman's theory in the Battle of Britain.
Thumpalumpacus
Lieutenant Colonel
Complacency is the most dangerous enemy of any fighting force.
Escuadrilla Azul
Tech Sergeant
- 2,127
- Feb 27, 2020
The mood in BoB think it was more the kind: "You are alone against our rampant armies, spearheaded by the almighty Luftwaffe, so must surrender. And the sooner the better for all" in the belive that the UK goverment will end the pursuit of war, as the had done with the remilitarization of the Rhineland, the born of the Luftwaffe, the Anschluss, the occupation of the Sudeten, the occupation of the rest of Checoslovakia.
And frankly, after the overwhelming defeat of France, I think they had reasons to belive that way.
The land victories were spectacular, but at heavy cost to the LW. By July 1940 after just over 2 months of action Herman had lost half of his LW to various causes. Land victories were taking areas too big for the LW to defend. When the BoB wasn't successful did they stop for a second to think why?
Escuadrilla Azul
Tech Sergeant
- 2,127
- Feb 27, 2020
The spectacularity of those victories blinded them and the short nature of these campaigns made that attrition affordable.
Of course, a long attrition war wasn't affordable but it wasn't the plan. The plan was a heavy blow to the USSR that knock them out of the war without they even notice what hit them. The purges and poor showing of the Red Army in the winter war against Finland tended to support this view to them.
The conquered area could be to big for the LW to defend it properly but the british empire was in no shape to be a dangerous enemy in the time frame the Nazis thought they needed to overcome the USSR and get the resources they needed.
Admitedly, UK alone faced a very grim situation in 1941:
- In the first half they were opposed to an overtly hostile western and central Europe (either german occupied or neutral and, at the very least, unfriendly or neutral but powerless) and with an USSR very friendly to Nazi Germany. The Med and North África wasn't secure by no mean. The italians weren't a real threat, but a couple of german divisions manage to do great job there and in the Balkans and Crete the defeats were nearly an echo of 1940. The RAF wasn't achieving to much neither by day or by night and two JG were enough to do the job in western Europe and one in the Reich itself.
- In the second half, the USSR was at war against Nazi Germany but it was a losing strugle and a favourable outcome not too sure. The rest of the situation not much better but at the end of the year the USA were at war albeit some rough times laid ahead.
SpicyJuan11
Senior Airman
They did. The British really had no reason to fight after France fell in 1940, assuming the Germans are willing to provide generous terms. The Germans and British were in a complete stalemate barring another power joining the war to tilt the balance.
- Thread starter
- #134
Admiral Beez
Major
To pull this off Germany needs to defeat France and seek peace terms with Britain before May 1940 when Churchill becomes PM. Chamberlain may accept an olive branch from Hitler, but Churchill will tell him to stick it up his Arschloch
Churchill came to power when France and Belgium were invaded.
Thumpalumpacus
Lieutenant Colonel
I think that's Beez's point: once Churchill came to power, compromise was not an option. They had to defeat France during Chamberlain's tenure.
Or, to borrow a phrase, they "missed the bus".
- Thread starter
- #137
Admiral Beez
Major
- Thread starter
- #138
Admiral Beez
Major
If the Germans can make peace with Britain and set up a puppet Vichy government in France this will force at least four big changes.
1) What does Mussolini do? Does Italy fight on in North Africa against the British?
2) What does the Netherlands do? You can run a government in exile from Britain.
3) What does Japan do? They need DEI oil, without the Dutch government in exile, perhaps they can just buy the oil? Britain is now free to defend India, SEA, etc.
4) Does Stalin wait to be invaded?
But whatever date they decided to act would be the date that showed Chamberlains policy was wrong and Churchill would have been installed. Germany did a lot of re arming between Sept 39 and May 40.
- Thread starter
- #140
Admiral Beez
Major
Chamberlain's policy was clearly wrong on Sept 3, 1939. You think only on the invasion of France the Commons began to wonder? I do not share your view that Churchill's ascendency was guaranteed no matter the date.
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