Even in May 1940 Churchill wasn't popular with all MPs even Conservatives, Halifax still had supporters wanting to do a deal. Hitler believed he could avoid war with UK even if he invaded everywhere else, in part because people like Halifax were making noises that they would do a deal.
How to prepare Luftwaffe for Barbarossa if accurate intel on Soviet forces?
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Thumpalumpacus
Lieutenant Colonel
I think there was too much friction for that to happen, though. Weather, the Norway operation sucking out resources, and so on.
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Admiral Beez
Major
Come on.... Oct 1939 German bombers attacked the RN in the Firth of Forth, including a strike against HMS Hood. The month before in Sept 1939 the RAF launched bombers against the German fleet at Kiel. War was on, no doubt.
Nothing that believers thought couldn't be rowed back from to avoid all out war from wiki" British war planning had called for a "knockout blow" by strategic bombing of German industry with the RAF's substantial Bomber Command. However, there was considerable apprehension about German retaliation, and when President Franklin D. Roosevelt proposed an agreement not to mount any bombing raids which might endanger civilians, Britain and France immediately agreed and Germany two weeks later.[28] The RAF therefore conducted a large number of combined reconnaissance and propaganda leaflet flights over Germany.[29] These operations were jokingly termed "Pamphlet raids" or "Confetti War" in the British press.[30]"
Escuadrilla Azul
Tech Sergeant
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- Feb 27, 2020
Till May 1940 both UK and Germany restrain in bombing civilians of each other and the attacks on naval bases were much restricted and had to be done in fine weather and avoiding potencial damage to civilians (human beings and properties alike).
There are many references of this, for example in Guy Gibson's "Enemy coast ahead".
Ive read about it in many books, most recently in John Nichols "Return of the Dambusters" which is mainly about what 617 squadron did after "Chastise" but also covered many pilots experiences before the squadron was formed. A Admiral Beez With hindsight many people were way off the mark with what they thought. In May 1940 Germany looked to some as being all powerful, the UK knew what it was planning and had no reason to suspect Germany wasn't doing better as far as aircraft types and numbers. 22 years after WW1 ended some saw something much worse coming and would do almost anything to avoid it. Hitler didn't allow the bombing of London until well into the BoB he would have preferred the UK to keep out of things until he had done all he wanted in Europe and Russia.
SpicyJuan11
Senior Airman
1. Churchill was not so resolute in pursuing the war as commonly thought.
2. If we're talking alternate history, it is very possible that Churchill never becomes PM in the first place.
Thumpalumpacus
Lieutenant Colonel
Do you have any further reading on this?
Chamberlain was trying to avoid a war, so was Halifax. Chamberlain was a profoundly decent, Christian and fair man who had lost his son in the great war. In the end it was Chamberlains ultimatum that was used to declare war on Germany and it was declared by Chamberlain not by Churchill. (Churchill was a war monger with a long history of creating wars and treaties that lead to war)
Lets look at the situation of the "Munich Crisis". The Sudetenland was a German speaking region of Czechoslovakia neighbouring Germany that had belonged to the Austro-Hungarian empire. They didn't want to be in that nation. Neither did the Slovaks.
It was insane to expect HM Government to invade the Sudden land to force them to stay in Czechoslovakia. That's a Vietnam war and worse.
They had been forced into that by the victorious because Clementau wanted to make Germany or Austria small o land and population so Frances world be the big fish in the pond not because of some notion of self determination. It also created an economically dysfunctional Europe.
The split was German (3 to 3.5 million), Czech (5.5 million), Slovak (2.5 million). The Suddetenlanders were expecting a swiss style decentralised confederation as per Woodrow Wilsons 14 point plan (essentially propaganda) which promised self determination. Instead the got a kind of gerrymandered centralised republic they had little influence in.
Halifax went to Czechoslovakia to investigate and he found that the Czechs were doing land redistributions which favoured Czechs in the German speaking regions. Other problems were the 86 unarmed German protestors killed by Czech police in 1919 during council elections in several cities. As the British found out when they did the same to the Irish (Sunday Bloody Sunday) and Indians the memory rather lasts.
Germans were not present in the public service, they were loosing land and they didn't get the level of public high school education they got in neighbouring Germany.
Two things brought about the peaceful annexure of the Suddetenland back into the Reich (Germany, Austria combined) that was the "Munich Crisis". Firstly Eduard Benn's false claim that the Germans were planning an invasion in 1937. This utterly humiliated Hitler because he was planning no such things and it had British officers touring the Germany border to investigate if there Were invasion perpetrations. Finally in 1938 Czech police and paramilitaries started beating up ethnic German politicians during council elections. This is what finally triggered Hitler. He had become extremely emotional when he heard of the beatings. You can check some of these things in Maurice de Zayas "A terrible revenge" which records them well and point to the league of nations records of land seizures. Hitler: Beyond Evil and Tyranny by Russel H.S Stolfi as well.
Today relationships between Czechs, Germans and Austrians are very good as they have almost always been. They were only put in conflict by the artificial imposed politics of the great powers after WW1, mostly France.
The Slovaks aren't there, they wanted indpendabce, there is a Czech Republic but no Czechoslovakia. The Suddenland Germans were ethnically cleansed, murdered or forced to leave their homes to die in the cold with only 5kg of their belonings. Something Gustave Havel tried to heal, with success, by apologising.
The first actual invasion of WW2 was in fact Poland's invasion of the Tschen Region of Czechoslovakia after Germany's bloodless annexation. One of their first acts was to ban the speaking of Czech.
Its worth pointing out the Poland was a rather unpleasant dictatorship as well.
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Admiral Beez
Major
Chamberlain's mistake was making an impotent guarantee of Polish security. Better to let Poland come to terms with Hitler or Stalin, or get crushed between the two. This was not Britain's fight, otherwise the BEF would have been in Poland.
Chamberlain other mistake was not being clearer about what he wanted.
Chamberlain wanted the Germans and Poles to negotiate to resolve their differences. He also didn't want to absolutely guarantee Poland's borders he wanted to guarantee their independence. (two different things).
Both Hitler and the Polish Government misunderstood Chamberlin's nuanced/vague statement as a guarantee. The Polish Government became arrogant and intransigent and Hitler became frustrated so he created his "witches brew" which was the allegiance with Stalin. (There was likely a consideration of a war party in Britain which prevented chamberlain being clear) (Hitler was actually a moderate amongst both Polish and German nationalists)
The issue is that "Poland", being the residue of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was not Polish but 50% other ethnicities.
It was stupid to give a guarantee to a country, who went to war with almost all the neighbours in 1919/20 and had annexed Wilna from Lithuania, large parts of Germany, the Olsa area
from the CSR (in October 1938!) and large parts of the Ukraine and Bjelorussia from the USSR. A country with considerable problems with large ethnic minorities which made up almost 50% of the population. (Ukranians, Hungarians, Russians) And a country between Germany and the USSR. An explosive situation! I hardly not think of a better way to involve the UK and France in a full scale war with major powers sooner or later!
Were His Majesty's Government were fools I must assume they knew exactly what they were doing when they gave the guarantee to Poland.
After Hitler peacefully restored the Sudetenland to the Reich (3rd not the Hapsburg Reich) Poland took advantage to invade the Teschen region of Czechoslovakia. They immediately banned the speaking of German or Czech in the region. That should tell you the nature of the regime.
Had Polish-Slavik 'nationalist' sentiment behaved better towards it's minorities, including the Germans, it might have been a more stable country. Poland was a dictatorship. It was not a Swiss style confederation that preserved decentralised self determination. (Neither was Czechoslovakia)
And then there seems to be the persecution of the German ethnic Minority in 1919-1939 that included suppression of German schools and other things whereas this was not done by Germans to Minority Poles.
No, Chamberlain just wanted Germany to withdraw from Poland, not hard to understand. Nations invading their neighbours isn't a good way to live.
Get on the right page pbem, we are talking about Chamberlains guarantee.
Britain and the financiers in the city of London that rule the politic there has a long history of creating and forcing together a hodge podge of disparate peoples into dysfunctional nations with dysfunctional constitutions and centralizations of power that guarantee overbearing centralism conflict and allow divide and rule. Much of Africa and the Middle East is a disaster even now because of Britain's policies. The opium wars were created by one of those financiers (sassoon) and another R used Cecil Rhodes as a frontman to conquer Sth Africa for its gold and diamond interests . The "Poland" cobbled together by Britain and France as a "nation" when it was based on a historical empire or commonwealth (never a nation) that was in continual fluid border conflict with its neighbors was one of those multiethnic creations made to Suite France and Britains ambitions to dominate. It was Not for the People unfortunat enough to be wrangled in. The polish people deserved self determination but not at the expense of neighboring people. A swiss style confederation might have been created but they are too hard to control and dictate too. Poland was just as likely to find up itself at war with Soviet Union and some other Baltic states than Germany and Germany would never have invaded had it not been possible to enlist the Soviet Union nor if there weren't legitimate and serious grievances
You can read my post above.
The post war Europe created by France, US and UK was also economically dysfunctional though here France is most to blame. I think Britain walked from the table over some of Frances compensation demands.
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