How to Receive a British Declassified Document?

[Romantic Technofreak]

Hello to all, especially contibutors from UK!

I need the following thing: Intelligence Report ADI (K) No. 441/1944.

For my studies, I am now used to get German documents, had they been captured by the Americans or remained in Germany. But this time, I need something originally British, and I don't know where to ask.
What is in this document? The theme is the alleged flight of two Junkers Ju 390 to the Long Island Coast in January 1944, found out by an interrogation of a German POW. The telling is a fairy tale, such is for sure. But there are some things puzzling me.
First is the early date of the document: 11 August 1944. On this day, the Allied troops were only halfway to Paris. Southern France, where the Ju 290 base Mont-de-Marsan is located, is still in German hands, being given up not before August 20. So where did the British capture this person? On the Normandy frontier? If he was a Luftwaffe ground crew member, why was he sent there?
Second is, how could a comparedly low ranking person, and he surely was not more than lieutenant, more probably a sergeant or private, know about the Ju 390 at all? Everything was secret in Nazi Germany (I know I exaggerate), especially aircraft projects? Had there been rumours about the Ju 290 crews, maybe origininating from Junkers technichians which used to travel between Dessau and Mont-de-Marsan, "there is a Ju 390 too!" Although exactly this would not be found in this document...
And last, what did this person expect to achieve by telling fakes to the British? Any kind of better treatment? A moment of sensation?

The document mentioned above is declassified since decades. Karl Kössler and Günter Ott quote ist in their book about Ju 89/90/290/390. There is a website delivering ADI (K) documents: Introduction page
but they do concentrate on electronics. "My" one is not included.

So thank you very much for every help and saving me from having to contact the British Embassy in Berlin!

Best regards, RT

 

[Snautzer01]

Researching the Luftwaffe through Prisoner Interrogations - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum

Researching the Luftwaffe through Prisoner Interrogations Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

forum.12oclockhigh.net

 

[Snautzer01]

Not the Usa bomber again plse

two Junkers Ju 390 to the Long Island Coast

 

[SaparotRob]

Not the Usa bomber again plse

Don't you think we can all use a laugh?

 

[Snautzer01]

Sure
Cactus' are idiots
They are a bunch of pricks

They all order a round of drinks and inform the bartender that they are celebrating.
The three idiots lift their glasses into the air and together they shout "53" and skull their drinks.
They continue to order drinks throughout the night and evey time they toast and yell "53"
Finally curiosity get the better of the bartender and he ask why the three are shouting 53.
One of the group members answers.
"The three of us just finished a jigsaw puzzle and it only took us 53 days to complete"
The bartender asked "What's so special about that?"
The man replied..
"Well, the side of the box said 3 to 5 years"

 

[Snautzer01]

Above jokes are as stale as they Ju390 going to usa. So there... enjoy.

 

[Andrew Arthy]

Hi,

This report would be in British National Archives file AIR 40/2418, 324-498A Vol 23 | The National Archives. I have photographed most of this file, but unfortunately not A.D.I. (K) No. 441/1944.

Rather than telling the British directly, it is much more likely that the prisoner was one of those who was secretly recorded by the British. A lot of these recordings are just soldiers boasting and telling tall tales, but some of them are useful sources of information.

A list of National Archives researchers can be found here: Independent researchers - The National Archives. It would not take them very long to order this file and photograph the relevant page/s.

Cheers,
Andrew A.

 

[Romantic Technofreak]

Thank you, Andrew. Going to take a look there.

Regards, RT

 

[Deleted member 68059]

Hello to all, especially contibutors from UK!

I need the following thing: Intelligence Report ADI (K) No. 441/1944.

For my studies, I am now used to get German documents, had they been captured by the Americans or remained in Germany. But this time, I need something originally British, and I don't know where to ask.
What is in this document? The theme is the alleged flight of two Junkers Ju 390 to the Long Island Coast in January 1944, found out by an interrogation of a German POW. The telling is a fairy tale, such is for sure. But there are some things puzzling me.
First is the early date of the document: 11 August 1944. On this day, the Allied troops were only halfway to Paris. Southern France, where the Ju 290 base Mont-de-Marsan is located, is still in German hands, being given up not before August 20. So where did the British capture this person? On the Normandy frontier? If he was a Luftwaffe ground crew member, why was he sent there?
Second is, how could a comparedly low ranking person, and he surely was not more than lieutenant, more probably a sergeant or private, know about the Ju 390 at all? Everything was secret in Nazi Germany (I know I exaggerate), especially aircraft projects? Had there been rumours about the Ju 290 crews, maybe origininating from Junkers technichians which used to travel between Dessau and Mont-de-Marsan, "there is a Ju 390 too!" Although exactly this would not be found in this document...
And last, what did this person expect to achieve by telling fakes to the British? Any kind of better treatment? A moment of sensation?

The document mentioned above is declassified since decades. Karl Kössler and Günter Ott quote ist in their book about Ju 89/90/290/390. There is a website delivering ADI (K) documents: Introduction page
but they do concentrate on electronics. "My" one is not included.

So thank you very much for every help and saving me from having to contact the British Embassy in Berlin!

Best regards, RT

I copied it a few years ago. (You now owe me beer, these are in huge file folders which would have been no fun at all to have searched - Kew charges you an unbelievable amount of money to have things copied, never EVER ask them to do it, always use an independant local researcher)

 

[Romantic Technofreak]

Hi Snowygroach!!!

First of all thank you very much!!!!

Meanwhile, I had no time to visit the National Archives website. So you obviously spared me a lot of money. I send you a PM about the "beer"...

From the document, I read the following:

1. There is nothing of interest about the Ju 390 but section #17.
2. Name and military rank of the P/W are not given. Nor is date and location of his capture.
3. He definitely mentions only ONE Ju 390, so this creates no need to speculate if Ju 390 V-2 was ever accomplished.
4. If he is lying, there might have been a connection to the P/Ws mentioned in section #16 which might have told him about the aircraft, what may have made him create his story.

Thanks once more, and best regards,
RT

 

[Deleted member 68059]

Hi Snowygroach!!!

First of all thank you very much!!!!

Meanwhile, I had no time to visit the National Archives website. So you obviously spared me a lot of money. I send you a PM about the "beer"...

From the document, I read the following:

1. There is nothing of interest about the Ju 390 but section #17.
2. Name and military rank of the P/W are not given. Nor is date and location of his capture.
3. He definitely mentions only ONE Ju 390, so this creates no need to speculate if Ju 390 V-2 was ever accomplished.
4. If he is lying, there might have been a connection to the P/Ws mentioned in section #16 which might have told him about the aircraft, what may have made him create his story.

Thanks once more, and best regards,
RT

It is impossible to know if any material in these records is "factual", you will see in the title on the original file it says "should not be accepted as facts until commented in Air Ministry Intelligence summaries".

So, if you were very very seriously interested, that would be where to look next.

Sometimes the people simply repeated a story they heard, sometimes they were troublemakers, but not always, and of course, many things in the files
are simply a person stating a true event. I am not prepared to say this is definetly a lie.

Yes, I looked at the rest of the file and that is the only data on the Ju 390.

 

[Romantic Technofreak]

Hi Calum,

sorry for being late. You wrote:

So, if you were very very seriously interested, that would be where to look next.

This intelligence report is the only source quoted about this particular "flight". I mean had there been any successfull search for more, we would know.

Sometimes the people simply repeated a story they heard, sometimes they were troublemakers, but not always, and of course, many things in the files
are simply a person stating a true event. I am not prepared to say this is definetly a lie.

There are more things missing which would be needed to make believe in a true event:
1. No exact date of the flight is given.
2. Nor are names of commander and crew.
3. No statement from the prisoner, if he had personally seen the pictures brought back.
4. No statement about noticeable landmarks shown in the pictures which would identify the North American coast as such.

Further, if the aircraft was the Ju 390 V-1, which itself merely had been the reconstructed Ju 90 V-6, Kössler and Ott state this prototype had a maximum overall weight over 38 tons. With a setup weight of 35 tons, the fuel to be possibly carried is minimal.
More, if the aircraft had been a Ju 390 in least complete configuration, its range had been, according to some source, 10,900 km. The distance between Mont-de-Marsan and New York is 5,920 km. For getting back an forth, you go minimum 11,840 km. An endurance of 32 hours, as given by section #18, and a cruise speed of 350 km/h makes a range of 11,200 km. Well, this all shows the Ju 390 could NOT make this journey. And if one tells ideas how to increase range, this would have been possible, but does not add credibility to this story.
Nor does the argument for a stopover in Brest for fully fueling up or the argument "it had not exactly been NYC", when not the slightest evidence for these exist.

So, I mean, the probability that the prisoner lied is 90 % at least. He surely said to himself, if they interrogate me, I tell them a story that gets them astonished. And he was successfull. People like me are astonished ever since having read this story.

Regards, RT

 

[Deleted member 68059]

I mean had there been any successfull search for more, we would know.

Thats the kind of thing I thought before I started researching for my book, and constantly came across important information I could not
believe anyone had not published. You would be very surprised how little original archive research is done (mostly because its very expensive
and authors earn so little)