Hunting a French Monster.......!

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xylstra

Airman 1st Class
197
58
Jul 9, 2014
You've probably heard of it: the MATHIS 'Vega' 42-cylinder aero-engine. Two prototypes produced but where did they get to?? One popular story doing the rounds is that they were spirited off to secluded hiding in the French Pyrenees ahead of the invading Germans. But the other story I've grown-up with as fact is that it was evacuated to England and gifted to Britain as a French contribution in aid of defeating the Germans. In reply to which the British Air ministry promptly pinched their noses and said "Non Merci!".
But is it true?? Is either story true?? Tantalisingly, are both stories true? - canny Emil Mathis may have decided to 'have a bet both ways' since there were two prototypes, i.e. one despatched to England and the other hidden in the mountains ..... will we ever know?
Well, as far as the Anglo-MATHIS is concerned there is in fact some indirect, corroborating evidence. You see, it's all about a book: "Aircraft Engines of the World, 1946" by Paul Howard WILKINSON, printed in America. In it, Wilkinson describes and illustrates it with a picture. Ahh-hh-h, that photograph! Time-travel time: long, long before computers and the internet everything took the long way, no less printing a book. For Wilkinson to have produced the 1946 version the manuscript would have been completed probably while WW2 was raging, in its death throes at least. Even in the immediate post-war chaos and from America perhaps, he would have struggled to make contact with the MATHIS concern in France. Here then, is the mystery. The photograph in the book matches no known MATHIS archive pictures and as far as is known - probably due to French military secrecy - there was no pre-German invasion release of photographs. So where did Wilkinson get the photograph from?? Surely, it could only have come from England.
Interestingly, and as the title suggests it also describes the aero-engines of newly-conquered Germany but the accompanying photographs are not the glamour shots typical of the glossy sales brochure. They look distressed, i.e. almost certainly salvaged from downed/captured/abandoned German aircraft. In which case and in all likelihood they would have been esconced in an R.A.E. storage facility (probably at Farnborough) for the purposes of technical evaluation. It stands to reason that the MATHIS 'Vega' would almost certainly have been stored there as well.
Military security restrictions would have been in place so for Wilkinson to have obtain a set of these photographs he would have needed an "inside man".
Hmm-mm-m, this is where it gets 'curiouser and curiouser'. The R.A.E employed a senior engineer by the name of - wait for it - one G.S. Wilkinson! Hands up who believes in coincidences!!
So, Paul Howard whispers in G.S.'s ear, "psst, how about getting me a batch of those photos for the book, brother" and would I be surprised to discover that the 'Vega' picture was amongst them?
Still, it is just a hypothesis but not an unreasonable one, all we need is the proof. And what of the post-war fate of the 'Vega'? Re-patriated to France or destined for the scrapper?
We don't know, but do you? First-hand eye-witnesses are likely all dead but the memories of descendants, old diaries and old photos might shed light on the mystery. Maybe there are old archive records, e.g. inventories of held engines, disposal/struck-off charge notices, etc.
Speak-up, speak-up! ...too many decades have past, this needs to be a mystery no more.
 
A lot of speculation and not a lot fact.
The 1946 edition of "Aircraft Engines of the World" is the 4th edition, the earlier ones being the 1941, 1944, and 1945 editions (many pages of this edition are available either on this website or on Spitfire performance). In some cases pictures and descriptions were repeated from year to year or only a few details changed. In fact changed pages or new pages are marked/lettered new at the top so no it would not have taken months for a new edition to be prepared.
BTW the 1946 edition shows no German piston engines, only jets. Also no Japanese engines or Italian engines. Think of the book as sort of a commercial catalog. Nothing that was top secret is in the book. Only engines that one might assume are already known in the press or makers were trying to market. There are about 30 pages worth of adds in the front of the book for things from complete engines to spark plugs and radiators.
WW II was not raging when this book was prepared, the preface was written in Feb 1946.

The French Mathis company has 5 entries ( 5 full page photographs and 5 pages of data) for 5 different engines.
an air cooled inline 4 cylinder 3 liter
an air cooled 7 cylinder radial of 5.3 liters
an air cooled inverted V-8 of 6 liters
an air cooled 14 cylinder 2 row radial of 10.5 liters
and the big 42 cylinder (7 banks of 6 cylinders) liquid cooled engine of 59.3 liters called the Vega.
Mention is also made of the larger version, the Vesta of 119.4 liters but no photo.

In the 1947 edition the big engines disappear but a flat 4 shows up (also 3 liter) as does an X-16 ( two of the V-8s driving a common propshaft) .

By 1948 the radials had disappeared and photos only show the flat 4 and the V-8 although different versions are described and the inline 4 and X-16 get brief descriptions.

In the 1949 edition there is no mention of the Mathis company.

All photos of the Mathis engines are the typical engine only with no background and no hanging wires. This includes the photo of the 42 cylinder engine.
 
A lot of speculation and not a lot fact.
The 1946 edition of "Aircraft Engines of the World" is the 4th edition, the earlier ones being the 1941, 1944, and 1945 editions (many pages of this edition are available either on this website or on Spitfire performance). In some cases pictures and descriptions were repeated from year to year or only a few details changed. In fact changed pages or new pages are marked/lettered new at the top so no it would not have taken months for a new edition to be prepared.
BTW the 1946 edition shows no German piston engines, only jets. Also no Japanese engines or Italian engines. Think of the book as sort of a commercial catalog. Nothing that was top secret is in the book. Only engines that one might assume are already known in the press or makers were trying to market. There are about 30 pages worth of adds in the front of the book for things from complete engines to spark plugs and radiators.
WW II was not raging when this book was prepared, the preface was written in Feb 1946.

The French Mathis company has 5 entries ( 5 full page photographs and 5 pages of data) for 5 different engines.
an air cooled inline 4 cylinder 3 liter
an air cooled 7 cylinder radial of 5.3 liters
an air cooled inverted V-8 of 6 liters
an air cooled 14 cylinder 2 row radial of 10.5 liters
and the big 42 cylinder (7 banks of 6 cylinders) liquid cooled engine of 59.3 liters called the Vega.
Mention is also made of the larger version, the Vesta of 119.4 liters but no photo.

In the 1947 edition the big engines disappear but a flat 4 shows up (also 3 liter) as does an X-16 ( two of the V-8s driving a common propshaft) .

By 1948 the radials had disappeared and photos only show the flat 4 and the V-8 although different versions are described and the inline 4 and X-16 get brief descriptions.

In the 1949 edition there is no mention of the Mathis company.

All photos of the Mathis engines are the typical engine only with no background and no hanging wires. This includes the photo of the 42 cylinder engine.
 
Hi "Shortround6",
As you say, "a lot of speculation and not a lot of fact".......
The February 1946 dating of the preface DOES NOT disprove that WW2 wasn't raging. Book prefaces are more often than not written separately some many months subsequent to completion of the main body-text manuscript, and not uncommonly by an invited celebrity reviewer. As you yourself point out much of the manuscript content of the 1946 edition was just re-cycled from the previous editions - the latter, all mid-war. Moreover, just because the preface has a 1946 date does nothing to prove at what date the photos came into Wilkinson's possession. Further, their absence from the 1945 edition can easily be explained by the application of military censorship. Consequently your critical comments resolve nothing.
You also need to distinguish between edition dates and revised/un-revised re-printing dates. I don't own the subject book but read it many decades ago as an Engineering student but it was long since pilfered from the university library so I can't refer back to it. The copy I saw DID, indeed show B&W photos of German engines so maybe your version is a different re-print year?
Your response to my post provides useful additional information vis-a-vie Wilkinson's book but does not resolve the fundamental questions.
I rather get the impression that your 'pithy' intro comment means that you've not understood that, of course, my original posting was highly speculative due to the abscence of hard facts. The very point and purpose of my posting was to permanently extinguish the speculation by replacing them with verifiable proven facts, the legitimate role of any historical researcher!
The inescapable mystery remains: what was the fate of the two 'Vega' prototypes both during and after WW2?
So far, no-one seems to know and anyone who does is either mute or doesn't yet know someone is asking.
There is an interesting post-war 'twist' to the story: there is in existence a photograph (see latest July, 2019 issue of "AEROPLANE" magazine) of the MATHIS trade stand at the 1946 French Air Salon showing what purports to be a 'Vega' prototype on display. However, due to its lack of clarity significant doubt remains as to whether it is a model mock-up or a bona fide 'Vega'. If only a mock-up then it only deepens the mystery of the whereabouts of the original prototypes.
 
For "Aircraft Engines of the World" there doesn't appear to be any "revised/un-revised re-printing dates" from 1944 on it was an annual, at least until the late 50s? By 1960 the book is the 1960/61 edition. I don't have the 1945 edition. I do have the 1941, 1944, 1946, 1947, 1948, 1949, 1953 and some later ones.
The Preface timing slipped over the years, In 1941 it was dated in Jan and by 1960 it was dated in June. In the preface it is often noted how many changes there are from the previous edition. Number of new pictures or new pages. The 1946 preface also states that the three Axis countries -Germany, Italy and Japan have been deleted.

this site has some pretty good information.
Mathis Vega 42-Cylinder Aircraft Engine

The photo in the 1946 "Aircraft Engines of the World" appears to be the same as the 3rd one in that article.
 
I really like finding out about French piston engines, and I really don't mean to derail the thread, but does anyone have any information about the experimental Saurer FLB 2000 engine from the WW2 period? Supposed to be two stroke, opposed pistons, fuel injection, obviously supercharged.

moteur avion FLB.jpg
 
I really like finding out about French piston engines, and I really don't mean to derail the thread, but does anyone have any information about the experimental Saurer FLB 2000 engine from the WW2 period? Supposed to be two stroke, opposed pistons, fuel injection, obviously supercharged.

Saurer is not French, but Swiss...
 
I really like finding out about French piston engines, and I really don't mean to derail the thread, but does anyone have any information about the experimental Saurer FLB 2000 engine from the WW2 period? Supposed to be two stroke, opposed pistons, fuel injection, obviously supercharged.

View attachment 546004
I'm intrigued - keep me posted. You might like to pursue your inquiries in respect of high power-density Diesel tank-engines which I believe Saurer were developing at WW2-end. The aero-engine may have been a derivation of that work. Cheers.
 
For "Aircraft Engines of the World" there doesn't appear to be any "revised/un-revised re-printing dates" from 1944 on it was an annual, at least until the late 50s? By 1960 the book is the 1960/61 edition. I don't have the 1945 edition. I do have the 1941, 1944, 1946, 1947, 1948, 1949, 1953 and some later ones.
The Preface timing slipped over the years, In 1941 it was dated in Jan and by 1960 it was dated in June. In the preface it is often noted how many changes there are from the previous edition. Number of new pictures or new pages. The 1946 preface also states that the three Axis countries -Germany, Italy and Japan have been deleted.

this site has some pretty good information.
Mathis Vega 42-Cylinder Aircraft Engine

The photo in the 1946 "Aircraft Engines of the World" appears to be the same as the 3rd one in that article.
Had a chance to look at the photo on a bigger screen today. Since I am unable to refer to the original copy of Wilkinson's book I can't be sure. I had already seen the photos on Pearce's web-site and other sources before and am not sure that it was identical. Still, the timing of photo availability is still constrained. I am not aware that there was any pre-invasion release of pictures so there are still elements of intrigue. Even more mysterious - not just the engines - but what about all the technical documents; test reports, brochures, drawings, engineering blue-prints, etc.? Seems that MATHIS or other agencies must have had a wholesale cleanout. Rather surprising that nothing was souvenired for the company historical archives.
 
Had a chance to look at the photo on a bigger screen today. Since I am unable to refer to the original copy of Wilkinson's book I can't be sure. I had already seen the photos on Pearce's web-site and other sources before and am not sure that it was identical. Still, the timing of photo availability is still constrained. I am not aware that there was any pre-invasion release of pictures so there are still elements of intrigue. Even more mysterious - not just the engines - but what about all the technical documents; test reports, brochures, drawings, engineering blue-prints, etc.? Seems that MATHIS or other agencies must have had a wholesale cleanout. Rather surprising that nothing was souvenired for the company historical archives.
Hi "Shortround6", As an afterthought, are you able to scan the MATHIS 'Vega' picture from "A.E.o.t.W, 1946 Ed." and up-load it? I'd like to refresh my memory of what I'd seen. Thanks.
 
I'm intrigued - keep me posted. You might like to pursue your inquiries in respect of high power-density Diesel tank-engines which I believe PORSCHE/SIMMERING were developing at WW2-end. The aero-engine may have been inspired by that work.
Had a chance to get near a bigger screen PC to refresh my memory. The reference I had in mind came from Karl Lundgren's "Professor Porsche's Wars" and indeed was a Porsche/Simmering joint development project (see pictures attached) - very advanced for its time. It was Saurer's post-war diesel developments that de-railed my memories.
Again, let me know what you discover on the SAURER FLB2000 development. Cheers.
 

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