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Glorious, and the Battle off Samar.During WWII, there was only one gunfight between battleships and an aircraft carrier. If the HMS Glorious had flown combat air patrols, that gunfight may not have taken place.
Was it HMS Formidable that was part of the line of battle in a night action in the Mediterranean?During WWII, there was only one gunfight between battleships and an aircraft carrier. If the HMS Glorious had flown combat air patrols, that gunfight may not have taken place.
HMS Formidable was in the near vicinity of the night action at the Battle of Cape Matapan in 1941, but was not part of the battle line (HMSs Warspite, Valiant and Barham)Was it HMS Formidable that was part of the line of battle in a night action in the Mediterranean?
I forgot about that one. The escort carriers were not capable of outrunning battleships. The Glorious was just as fast as Scharnhorst and Gneisnau, and could have avoided the gunfight if the battleships had been spotted.Agree with the comment on air patrols, but doesn't the Samar action count, too?
Heck, if they had flown search patrols or even a pair of sub hunters/spotters they may have had enough time to avoid contact.During WWII, there was only one gunfight between battleships and an aircraft carrier. If the HMS Glorious had flown combat air patrols, that gunfight may not have taken place.
Legend has it she did get off a few rounds before ordered to retire. It's a legend that I like and if you're not going to corroborate it, don't bother me with facts.HMS Formidable was in the near vicinity of the night action at the Battle of Cape Matapan in 1941, but was not part of the battle line (HMSs Warspite, Valiant and Barham)
Legend has it she did get off a few rounds before ordered to retire. It's a legend that I like and if you're not going to corroborate it, don't bother me with facts.
The IJN Chiyoda, having been disabled by USN carrier aircraft during the Battle off Cape Engano on 25 Oct 1944, was dispatched by a USN task force of 4 cruisers and 9 destroyers, before she could be scuttled and her crew rescued.Glorious, and the Battle off Samar.
But even two major screwups like these don't make for a compelling argument to equip carriers with heavy guns.
How much more expensive would those escort carriers be if they had the guns and armor to defend against a surface task force with heavy cruisers and the friggin' Yamato?
Yes, during the Battle off Cape Matapan in March 1941. She got a 4.5in salvo or two off before being told to retire and leave the gun battle to the battleships and cruisers.Was it HMS Formidable that was part of the line of battle in a night action in the Mediterranean?
During WWII, there was only one gunfight between battleships and an aircraft carrier. If the HMS Glorious had flown combat air patrols, that gunfight may not have taken place.
The S&G in this scenario are both with an air group.I forgot about that one. The escort carriers were not capable of outrunning battleships. The Glorious was just as fast as Scharnhorst and Gneisnau, and could have avoided the gunfight if the battleships had been spotted.
The Scharnhorst and Gneisnau both carried sea planes. These can do scouting and they can tell you where the Glorious is. They still cannot catch the thing. The AR196s cannot outrun Sea Gladiators. Recovering sea planes while travelling at full speed will be interesting.The S&G in this scenario are both with an air group.
Their air group - 30-something aircraft each - can catch it.The Scharnhorst and Gneisnau both carried sea planes. These can do scouting and they can tell you where the Glorious is. They still cannot catch the thing. The AR196s cannot outrun Sea Gladiators. Recovering sea planes while travelling at full speed will be interesting.
I am assuming that the Glorious is a pure aircraft carrier and that the Scharnhorst and Gneisnau are pure battleships.Their air group - 30-something aircraft each - can catch it.
Historically - yes.I am assuming that the Glorious is a pure aircraft carrier and that the Scharnhorst and Gneisnau are pure battleships.
I am looking at an interaction of hybrid or regular carriers with battleships. For the purposes of that, Scharnhorst and Gneisnau are battleships.Historically - yes.
For the needs of this thread - both S&G are the hybrid carriers.
(my numbering)Now we get into what could have/should have changed if the the Sisters had been completed/modified into hybrids.
1 - With more German aircraft available would the RN have used a 3rd carrier on the Norwegian operation/s? They would have known the difference in 1938-39.
2 - What differences in ship disposition would the British make?
3 - Would the Germans even have risked the hybrids (they had nothing else larger than the Panzerschiffes) in the spotty weather conditions off Norway in May/early June.
4 - What is the secondary battery of the decked German ships? the full 15cm battery or reduced?
Then all the hybrid has to fight a cruiser is the main turrets. A Southampton can't sink the hybrid with 6in guns but it can sure wreck the flight deck, aviation faculties.4 - IMO - no 15 cm guns.
They went all in and they had already lost (killed/crippled) several major ships and 1/2 their destroyers. The Hipper was the only other operational heavy unit in May/June of 1940.3 - They intend to 'steal' Norway away from the french ans British, and KM was behind all of this. You can bet they will go all-in.
Historically - yes.
For the needs of this thread - both S&G are the hybrid carriers.