Hybrid aircraft carriers (5 Viewers)

[z42]

During WWII, there was only one gunfight between battleships and an aircraft carrier. If the HMS Glorious had flown combat air patrols, that gunfight may not have taken place.

Glorious, and the Battle off Samar.

But even two major screwups like these don't make for a compelling argument to equip carriers with heavy guns.

How much more expensive would those escort carriers be if they had the guns and armor to defend against a surface task force with heavy cruisers and the friggin' Yamato?

 

[SaparotRob]

During WWII, there was only one gunfight between battleships and an aircraft carrier. If the HMS Glorious had flown combat air patrols, that gunfight may not have taken place.

Was it HMS Formidable that was part of the line of battle in a night action in the Mediterranean?

 

[Warspite63]

Was it HMS Formidable that was part of the line of battle in a night action in the Mediterranean?

HMS Formidable was in the near vicinity of the night action at the Battle of Cape Matapan in 1941, but was not part of the battle line (HMSs Warspite, Valiant and Barham)

 

[Howard Gibson]

Agree with the comment on air patrols, but doesn't the Samar action count, too?

I forgot about that one. The escort carriers were not capable of outrunning battleships. The Glorious was just as fast as Scharnhorst and Gneisnau, and could have avoided the gunfight if the battleships had been spotted.

 

[Shortround6]

During WWII, there was only one gunfight between battleships and an aircraft carrier. If the HMS Glorious had flown combat air patrols, that gunfight may not have taken place.

Heck, if they had flown search patrols or even a pair of sub hunters/spotters they may have had enough time to avoid contact.

 

[SaparotRob]

HMS Formidable was in the near vicinity of the night action at the Battle of Cape Matapan in 1941, but was not part of the battle line (HMSs Warspite, Valiant and Barham)

Legend has it she did get off a few rounds before ordered to retire. It's a legend that I like and if you're not going to corroborate it, don't bother me with facts.

 

[Warspite63]

Legend has it she did get off a few rounds before ordered to retire. It's a legend that I like and if you're not going to corroborate it, don't bother me with facts.

https://media.tenor.com/gDPgEekqX_UAAAAM/reality-substitute.gif

 

[EwenS]

Glorious, and the Battle off Samar.

But even two major screwups like these don't make for a compelling argument to equip carriers with heavy guns.

How much more expensive would those escort carriers be if they had the guns and armor to defend against a surface task force with heavy cruisers and the friggin' Yamato?

The IJN Chiyoda, having been disabled by USN carrier aircraft during the Battle off Cape Engano on 25 Oct 1944, was dispatched by a USN task force of 4 cruisers and 9 destroyers, before she could be scuttled and her crew rescued.

USS Hornet CV-8 was another crippled carrier that ended up, after being abandoned by her crew, being finally dispatched by two Japanese destroyers on 27 Oct 1942.

Was it HMS Formidable that was part of the line of battle in a night action in the Mediterranean?

Yes, during the Battle off Cape Matapan in March 1941. She got a 4.5in salvo or two off before being told to retire and leave the gun battle to the battleships and cruisers.

Edit- she was tail end Charlie to the line of 3 battleships. From one of her gunnery officers.

"We saw a group of coloured flares fired from Warspite, which were in fact the night challenge signal, then, almost immediately, the battleship's searchlights were switched on to reveal to our amazement three sleek-looking light grey warships, their guns trained fore and aft. Within seconds there was an ear-splitting roar as the 15-inch guns of our battleships opened fire at almost point-blank range. The result was immediate and devastating. I vividly recall seeing a complete turret of the leading ship disappear over the side. Masses of flame soon enveloped all three ships. Although we received the order to open fire the order was almost immediately countermanded as Formidable turned out of line to starboard. One salvo was in fact fired by Formidable, and this must have been one of the few occasions during the Second World War when an aircraft carrier used its main gunnery armament against a major enemy warship."

 

[SaparotRob]

Now that's an accomplishment no other flattop can match.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

During WWII, there was only one gunfight between battleships and an aircraft carrier. If the HMS Glorious had flown combat air patrols, that gunfight may not have taken place.

The Battle of Samar as well.

ETA: Late to the party, others have made this point already, apologies.

 

[tomo pauk]

I forgot about that one. The escort carriers were not capable of outrunning battleships. The Glorious was just as fast as Scharnhorst and Gneisnau, and could have avoided the gunfight if the battleships had been spotted.

The S&G in this scenario are both with an air group.

 

[Howard Gibson]

The S&G in this scenario are both with an air group.

The Scharnhorst and Gneisnau both carried sea planes. These can do scouting and they can tell you where the Glorious is. They still cannot catch the thing. The AR196s cannot outrun Sea Gladiators. Recovering sea planes while travelling at full speed will be interesting.

 

[tomo pauk]

The Scharnhorst and Gneisnau both carried sea planes. These can do scouting and they can tell you where the Glorious is. They still cannot catch the thing. The AR196s cannot outrun Sea Gladiators. Recovering sea planes while travelling at full speed will be interesting.

Their air group - 30-something aircraft each - can catch it.

 

[Howard Gibson]

Their air group - 30-something aircraft each - can catch it.

I am assuming that the Glorious is a pure aircraft carrier and that the Scharnhorst and Gneisnau are pure battleships.

 

[tomo pauk]

I am assuming that the Glorious is a pure aircraft carrier and that the Scharnhorst and Gneisnau are pure battleships.

Historically - yes.
For the needs of this thread - both S&G are the hybrid carriers.

 

[Howard Gibson]

Historically - yes.
For the needs of this thread - both S&G are the hybrid carriers.

I am looking at an interaction of hybrid or regular carriers with battleships. For the purposes of that, Scharnhorst and Gneisnau are battleships.

In a battle of a regular carrier versus two hybrid carriers, the number of aircraft is equal. The Glorious has to sink more stuff, but the guns on the hybrids create no opportunity. Either way, Scharnhorst and Gneisnau can keep clear of British battleships most of the time, if not all the time.

 

[Shortround6]

The Operations off Norway were a chaotic mess. The Glorious was on her 4th (or 5th?) trip to Norway in about 6 weeks. British cruiser and destroyer escort availability almost changed by the day. With most ships only staying a few days in Norwegian waters before returning for fuel. British were light on having a number of cruisers in the area. However the Valiant had made at least one trip a week or two before the Glorious was lost. That would have been interesting if the decked Twins had run into the Valiant in bad weather. I would also note the Rodney was operating a bit north east of the Faroes and Shetlands by Midnight of June 9th/10th and the Renown was running south of the Faroes on June 8th.
Air groups for the the British carriers fluctuated considerably during this period.
Now we get into what could have/should have changed if the the Sisters had been completed/modified into hybrids. With more German aircraft available would the RN have used a 3rd carrier on the Norwegian operation/s? They would have known the difference in 1938-39.
What differences in ship disposition would the British make?
Would the Germans even have risked the hybrids (they had nothing else larger than the Panzerschiffes) in the spotty weather conditions off Norway in May/early June.
What is the secondary battery of the decked German ships? the full 15cm battery or reduced?

 

[tomo pauk]

Now we get into what could have/should have changed if the the Sisters had been completed/modified into hybrids.
1 - With more German aircraft available would the RN have used a 3rd carrier on the Norwegian operation/s? They would have known the difference in 1938-39.
2 - What differences in ship disposition would the British make?
3 - Would the Germans even have risked the hybrids (they had nothing else larger than the Panzerschiffes) in the spotty weather conditions off Norway in May/early June.
4 - What is the secondary battery of the decked German ships? the full 15cm battery or reduced?

(my numbering)
1- I bet they would've used any flattop available.
2 - Making the task groups, each with a CV, a capital ship and cruisers+destroyers as the availability allows?
3 - They intend to 'steal' Norway away from the french ans British, and KM was behind all of this. You can bet they will go all-in.
4 - IMO - no 15 cm guns.

 

[Shortround6]

4 - IMO - no 15 cm guns.

Then all the hybrid has to fight a cruiser is the main turrets. A Southampton can't sink the hybrid with 6in guns but it can sure wreck the flight deck, aviation faculties.
One 11in turret or two per Hybrid? one turret means that two hybrids together have less fire power than the Graf Spee. You are now depending on the 10.5cm guns for anti-destroyer fire power. Even if you kill several DDs with 10.5cm fire, if they got within torpedo range they did their job.

3 - They intend to 'steal' Norway away from the french ans British, and KM was behind all of this. You can bet they will go all-in.

They went all in and they had already lost (killed/crippled) several major ships and 1/2 their destroyers. The Hipper was the only other operational heavy unit in May/June of 1940.
Things could go very well for the Hybrids or they could go very, very badly.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Historically - yes.
For the needs of this thread - both S&G are the hybrid carriers.

So you again have to pursue an enemy ship, sail to the wind in order to launch aircraft, and set up an optimal firing solution for your main battery. Do you land that initial 26,000 yd hit that cripples Glorious? Who gets planes up first? And when the two destroyers charge the Germans, do they shift fire, or perhaps screw up their take-off sailing to dodge gnats?

Not a lot of secondary guns on them if they're hybrids.