Hypothetical, A-1 Skyraider in WW2

[BlackSheep]

A friend of mine (also a forum member) was color blind.

When he was asked what to do at a traffic signal, he said that if the light was greenish, all was good and if it was gray, then he should stop.

Fortunately, I never had traffic light issues UNTIL my employer provided me with a chromatic contact lense. Placed on my dominant eye, it separated waves of light that had previously appeared to be one color and I would assign color names to identify what I was looking at. Unfortunately, the lense in conjunction with the nature of my eye sight tended to void the spectrum which is used as a "green" light. No one had warned me that this might happen and on my way home I almost Ed caused a pile up thinking the traffic light was out at a major intersection.Needless to say, I never wore them while driving again.
I used to get a kick out of bringing up my colorblindness to women, in my younger days. While it affects 10% of the male population, only .5% of females are afflicted, but that number goes up surprisingly higher, based upon the number of drinks she had and how interested she was in me, .

Lastly, in my youth, The border patrol disqualified me based upon my color blindness. I thought being color blind while working for the border patrol would be seen as a good thing, me not being able to discriminate based on color (ahem, this is one of those statements that while true, I've added in an attempt at humor to the ending)

 

[special ed]

I understand your humor!

 

[GrauGeist]

Ryan (or Redbeard, as he was known here on the forum) had a form of colorblindness that diminished his color spectrum recognition but hightened his ability to see shades.

One day at work, he was standing by the wire rack staring at two lengths of orange 16ga. THHN and he asked me which one was Orange. I told him that both were and thought I was messing with him, so I took a closer look and realized that the new spool was from a different supplier.

I honest to God couldn't see the difference, but he could.

 

[Warspite63]

I think the ibugs were holding it together, lol.
I'm always amazed when I see the picture of one flying with 3x2200lb torpedos and a dozen 250lb bombs, talk about a bomb dump truck!

I know, right? The Mauler was an absolute beast of an aircraft .... and so was the Skyraider. And 5 years earlier, carriers punch was supplied by the likes of the Devastator and the Vindicator....... the leaps and bounds in development are just astounding......

 

[BlackSheep]

Well, I'm in my Heavy Metal 50's ... lol! Am a big Maiden fan these days - how can you not love a band who's lead singer is qualified to fly a 747? Who wrote an 18-minute track about the crash of R101? Or the Charge of the Light Brigade? I saw a Discovery Channel documentary a few years back about 'The Top-10 Tanks'.... there' a clip of a T34 splashing around a muddy field in the UK. It stops by the interviewer, the driver climbs out.. I think 'That guy looks JUST like Bruce Dickinson'.... the interviewer says, "So, Bruce.....". I mean, the guy has a T34, and can talk intelligently about it....

Earlier this week, comedian Bill Burr released a Podcast on YouTube, in which, he praises Iron Maiden's front man, Bruce Dickinson, for not only his ability to still sing but also because not only is he rated to fly commercially, he is also FLYING THE BAND AROUND ON IT'S CURRENT WORLD TOUR! The band's plane, Ed Force One, named after mascot Eddie, has been upgraded from a 737 to a 757 and most recently a modified 747-400 capable of carrying the band, roadies, and all of its gear across continents. Somehow, between undertaking type conversion for the new plane, Bruce also found time to purchase a replica Fokker DR-1 and join the Great War Display Team in re-enacting aerial battles of WW1. And I didn't have time to take the trash to the curb, the other day…. Lol

 

[GTX]

Weren't allied Skyraiders used in the Red Gambit series?

 

[BlackSheep]

Ryan (or Redbeard, as he was known here on the forum) had a form of colorblindness that diminished his color spectrum recognition but hightened his ability to see shades.

One day at work, he was standing by the wire rack staring at two lengths of orange 16ga. THHN and he asked me which one was Orange. I told him that both were and thought I was messing with him, so I took a closer look and realized that the new spool was from a different supplier.

I honest to God couldn't see the difference, but he could.

There was a time, when people with enhanced shade recognition, which was especially prevalent amongst the least common form of color blindness, those that could only see shades of black, white, and gray, were in demand at alphabet agencies due to their ability to interpret early satellite photos. Color blindness is a funny issue. (Funny, how? Like a clown, I amuse you? Lol) it is a legitimate disability but not classed as one by the government, in fact, as was my case with the border patrol, the feds can use it as a basis not to hire an individual who is otherwise qualified.

 

[swampyankee]

There was a time, when people with enhanced shade recognition, which was especially prevalent amongst the least common form of color blindness, those that could only see shades of black, white, and gray, were in demand at alphabet agencies due to their ability to interpret early satellite photos. Color blindness is a funny issue. (Funny, how? Like a clown, I amuse you? Lol) it is a legitimate disability but not classed as one by the government, in fact, as was my case with the border patrol, the feds can use it as a basis not to hire an individual who is otherwise qualified.

I teach chemistry and color changes are frequently important in reactions. This makes color blindness educationally significant, but it's not so in history, math, or English, so it's not counted as one. I'd like to be informed if a student is color blind; I would have to modify labs and demos because of it.

I'm not color blind, but my correctable (to 20/20) vision disqualifies me from a commission in the US Armed Forces (or at least it did in the 1970s). It wouldn't have kept me from getting drafted (nor did significant hearing loss [he used hearing aids] keep a classmate from being drafted) or enlisting.

 

[Admiral Beez]

The A-1 was certainly a flying dump truck, but if it were at or near it's full loadout, it would not be able to get off of an escort carrier

The British Pacific Fleet could have done nicely with the Skyraider in 1944-45. The Skyraider's dimensions won't fit on the BPF carriers' narrow lifts and/or low hangars. But, HMS Colossus, the lead of her new class of CVLs commissioned in 1944, and has a 17.5ft hangar height and both lifts are sufficiently wide. As you mention above, anything slow like an escort carrier will have issues, but thankfully the 25 knot Colossus class has a strong catapult.

The Colossus/Majestics operated the Skyraider in an AEW role postwar.

Jim Cowell Skyraider Images

 

[syscom3]

Just to point this out. The B29 program had total priority on the R3350's. in 1944, they had short life spans, so literally anything coming from the factory (a Dodge plant in Chicago) was going to the AAF. You will need another set of assumptions about the availability of the engines AND the ability of the navy to perform the engine rebuilds at sea on the carriers. And don't forget the engine was made from magnesium. Which introduces a new set of problems.

 

[DBII]

Just want to expand on this thread a little. We have a Bearcat as an interceptor. Would the Tigercats be used for air superiority role or argument the Skyraiders for strike missions? Would the Tigercats be used strictly as land based strike fighters and night fighters? Would the Hellcat still be in the picture?

 

[GrauGeist]

I'd imagine that if the F8F was in service, then the F6F most likely would be moved to second line duties (much like the F4F was when the F6F came on strength).

 

[DBII]

I'd imagine that if the F8F was in service, then the F6F most likely would be moved to second line duties (much like the F4F was when the F6F came on strength).

That is what I was thinking. Hard to imagine the F6F moved to second line duty. Would the F4U be replaced by both the Tigercat and AD1?

 

[GrauGeist]

That is what I was thinking. Hard to imagine the F6F moved to second line duty. Would the F4U be replaced by both the Tigercat and AD1?

My best guess would be the F4U continuing to operate alongside the Bearcat just as it did with the Hellcat.

 

[EwenS]

We know how US carrier groups would have developed in the 1945-47 period as Friedman in "Fighters Over The Fleet" summarised the position from BuAer reports. I've set out the position below (excluding specialist ASW & night groups) together with some other points gleaned from a variety of sources over the years. Note after being kamikazied Saratoga became a training carrier & Enterprise would continue as a night carrier so the CV figures are all based around the Essex class.

Early 1945
CVB (Midway) - 73xfighter; 64xSB2C (this is the planned group at that point. The first two ships didn't complete until Sept 1945)
CV (Essex) - 73xF4U/F6F (some carriers had one or other while others one squadron of each) incl 2xF6F-5P & 4-6xF6F-5N; 15xTBM; 15xSB2C
CVL (Independence) - 24xF6F; 9xTBM
CVE (Sangamon & Commencement Bay) - 18xF6F; 12xTBM
CVE (Casablanca) - 18xFM2; 12xTBM

June 1945 (proposed and being implemented by 15 Aug 1945)
CVB (Midway) - 73xfighter; 64xSB2C (this is the planned group at that point. The first two ships didn't complete until Sept 1945)
CV (Essex) - 55xF4U/F6F (some carriers had one or other while others one squadron of each) incl 2xF6F-5P & 4-6xF6F-5N; 12xTBM; 32xSB2C
CVL (Independence) - 36xF6F
CVE (Sangamon & Commencement Bay) - 18xF6F; 12xTBM
CVE (Casablanca) - 18xFM2; 12xTBM

31 Oct 1945 proposal
CVB (Midway) - 65xF4U, 4xF4U(P), 2xF4U(N); 64xSB2C
CV (Essex 8 groups) - 49xF8F, 4xF8F(P), 4xF8F(N); 20xTBM; 24xSB2C
CV (Essex 4 groups) - 49xF4U, 4xF4U(P), 4xF4U(N); 20xTBM; 24xSB2C
CVE (Commencement Bay) - 18xF8F, 2F8F(P); 12xTBM

Note
1. that in absence of photo & night fighter versions of the F8F & F4U, F6F models would be substituted.
2. Ryan FR Fireball would replace F8F in one CVEG (39 built to Aug 1945)
3. TBM would be phased out by 1 Oct 1946. At that point the Essex would carry 55 fighters and 45 dive bombers.

Jan 1947 BuAer mobilisation plan
CVB (Midway) - 65xF4U-5, 4xF4U-5(P), 2xF4U-5(N); 44xAM-1 Mauler (later 40); (plus 4xAEW later); or
CVB (Midway) - 40xjets (FJ-1 or F6U-1 or F2D-1); 62xF8F (later reduced to 52), 4xF8F(P), 4xF8F(N); 4xAD-2Q, 4xAD-4W; or
CVB (Midway) - 40xF7F; 4xAD-4W
CV (Essex) - 49xF8F-2, 4xF8F-2(P), 4xF8F-2(N); 36xAD-2 (later reduced to 32), 4xAD-2Q, (plus 4xAD-4W later)


Note
1. F4U might need to be substituted for F8F on some ships
2. See how the size of the F7F impacts the overall size of the air group being carried on even a Midway.
3. By this point only a handful of Commencement Bay class CVE are in commission as training carriers, transports and ASW carriers.


F8F production didn't start at Grumman until Jan 1945, reaching double figures in May. Only 151 were produced by 15 Aug. The first squadron, VF-18 re-equipped in May and was due to go aboard the CV-12 Hornet in Sept 1945 when she completed her repairs. I have a note that the RN were expecting F6F production would be run down with no more available to them after the end of 1945 and were planning accordingly. Eastern were due to commence F3M production (their version of the F8F) by the end of the year so FM-2 production would have been run down.

In June 1945 BuAer had ordered an increase of SB2C production from 215 to 300 per month by the end of 1945.

By 15 Aug 1945 248 F7F had been produced. The first F7F-2N NF squadron was arriving on Okinawa as the war ended as were some photo planes.

Given the impact on air group sizes and the weaknesses around the carrier deck that early versions seem to have had, it seems that the F7F would only have operated from shore bases had the war gone on. From what follows plans revolve around the USMC not the USN.

I have a note that VMF-312 had begun the conversion process by Aug 1945 (24 aircraft planned) but I'm not sure that it actually happened until it returned to the USA in 1946. Plans called for 1 further fighter squadron by March 1946, 3 by June and 5 by Sept that year. Other USMC NF squadrons would convert at the following rate - 1 by Dec 1945, 2 by March 1946 & 4 by June 1946.

VMSB/VMTB squadrons would convert to VMBF squadrons in 1946 with 6 getting the F7F.

 

[EwenS]

The Colossus/Majestics operated the Skyraider in an AEW role postwar.

View attachment 700375

Jim Cowell Skyraider Images

The only RN Colossus to embark the Skyraider AEW.1 was Glory for a very short spell in late 1953. She transported 3 aircraft from 849 squadron C flight from UK to Malta Nov/Dec 1953. They were aboard for a total of 16 days! Entering service with 778 squadron iin Nov 1951, that unit became 849 squadron in July 1952 and continued with them until 1960 when Gannet AEW.3 finally replaced them entirely. Other than that short spell on Glory, it was Eagle, Ark Royal, Centaur, Bulwark (as pictured), Albion & Victorious that they operated from.

I don't believe that any other operator of the Colossus / Majestic class had a naval air arm that used Skyraiders from their ships.

 

[syscom3]

We know how US carrier groups would have developed in the 1945-47 period as Friedman in "Fighters Over The Fleet" summarised the position from BuAer reports. I've set out the position below (excluding specialist ASW & night groups) together with some other points gleaned from a variety of sources over the years. Note after being kamikazied Saratoga became a training carrier & Enterprise would continue as a night carrier so the CV figures are all based around the Essex class.

Early 1945
CVB (Midway) - 73xfighter; 64xSB2C (this is the planned group at that point. The first two ships didn't complete until Sept 1945)
CV (Essex) - 73xF4U/F6F (some carriers had one or other while others one squadron of each) incl 2xF6F-5P & 4-6xF6F-5N; 15xTBM; 15xSB2C
CVL (Independence) - 24xF6F; 9xTBM
CVE (Sangamon & Commencement Bay) - 18xF6F; 12xTBM
CVE (Casablanca) - 18xFM2; 12xTBM

June 1945 (proposed and being implemented by 15 Aug 1945)
CVB (Midway) - 73xfighter; 64xSB2C (this is the planned group at that point. The first two ships didn't complete until Sept 1945)
CV (Essex) - 55xF4U/F6F (some carriers had one or other while others one squadron of each) incl 2xF6F-5P & 4-6xF6F-5N; 12xTBM; 32xSB2C
CVL (Independence) - 36xF6F
CVE (Sangamon & Commencement Bay) - 18xF6F; 12xTBM
CVE (Casablanca) - 18xFM2; 12xTBM

31 Oct 1945 proposal
CVB (Midway) - 65xF4U, 4xF4U(P), 2xF4U(N); 64xSB2C
CV (Essex 8 groups) - 49xF8F, 4xF8F(P), 4xF8F(N); 20xTBM; 24xSB2C
CV (Essex 4 groups) - 49xF4U, 4xF4U(P), 4xF4U(N); 20xTBM; 24xSB2C
CVE (Commencement Bay) - 18xF8F, 2F8F(P); 12xTBM

Note
1. that in absence of photo & night fighter versions of the F8U & F4U, F6F models would be substituted.
2. Ryan FR Fireball would replace F8F in one CVEG (39 built to Aug 1945)
3. TBM would be phased out by 1 Oct 1946. At that point the Essex would carry 55 fighters and 45 dive bombers.

Jan 1947 BuAer mobilisation plan
CVB (Midway) - 65xF4U-5, 4xF4U-5(P), 2xF4U-5(N); 44xAM-1 Mauler (later 40); (plus 4xAEW later); or
CVB (Midway) - 40xjets (FJ-1 or F6U-1 or F2D-1); 62xF8F (later reduced to 52), 4xF8F(P), 4xF8F(N); 4xAD-2Q, 4xAD-4W; or
CVB (Midway) - 40xF7F; 4xAD-4W
CV (Essex) - 49xF8F-2, 4xF8F-2(P), 4xF8F-2(N); 36xAD-2 (later reduced to 32), 4xAD-2Q, (plus 4xAD-4W later)


Note
1. F4U might need to be substituted for F8F on some ships
2. See how the size of the F7F impacts the overall size of the air group being carried on even a Midway.
3. By this point only a handful of Commencement Bay class CVE are in commission as training carriers, transports and ASW carriers.


F8F production didn't start at Grumman until Jan 1945, reaching double figures in May. Only 151 were produced by 15 Aug. The first squadron, VF-18 re-equipped in May and was due to go aboard the CV-12 Hornet in Sept 1945 when she completed her repairs. I have a note that the RN were expecting F6F production would be run down with no more available to them after the end of 1945 and were planning accordingly. Eastern were due to commence F3M production (their version of the F8F) by the end of the year so FM-2 production would have been run down.

In June 1945 BuAer had ordered an increase of SB2C production from 215 to 300 per month by the end of 1945.

By 15 Aug 1945 248 F7F had been produced. The first F7F-2N NF squadron was arriving on Okinawa as the war ended as were some photo planes.

Given the impact on air group sizes and the weaknesses around the carrier deck that early versions seem to have had, it seems that the F7F would only have operated from shore bases had the war gone on. From what follows plans revolve around the USMC not the USN.

I have a note that VMF-312 had begun the conversion process by Aug 1945 (24 aircraft planned) but I'm not sure that it actually happened until it returned to the USA in 1946. Plans called for 1 further fighter squadron by March 1946, 3 by June and 5 by Sept that year. Other USMC NF squadrons would convert at the following rate - 1 by Dec 1945, 2 by March 1946 & 4 by June 1946.

VMSB/VMTB squadrons would convert to VMBF squadrons in 1946 with 6 getting the F7F.

I wonder why the Midway class carriers would not carry Avengers? They were great anti sub planes.

 

[EwenS]

I wonder why the Midway class carriers would not carry Avengers? They were great anti sub planes.

By mid-1945 the USN began to feel that the swing away from strike aircraft to fighters had gone too far. And, as ship targets were becoming fewer and the focus was changing to land targets, the SB2C dive bomber became the more flexible aircraft. Dive bombing by SB2C was considered the more accurate means of delivery of bombs than glide bombing by TBM.

For ASW work the SB2C was equally as capable. It was radar equipped (podded AN/APS-4 just like the Avenger in 1945), and could carry depth charges. While some Avengers in the Atlantic were dedicated to ASW work with sonobuoys, that was not a general fit on TBMs carried by the squadrons on the fleet carriers.

Early in its development the SB2C was modified to carry the Mk13 torpedo. That involved removal of the bomb doors and the switch between roles was found to take too long - they eventually got it down to a couple of hours! In 1945 it was retested as a torpedo carrier, and with reduced need for torpedoes, was found acceptable as a torpedo bomber.

As a result the TBM was no longer an essential part of the air group.