Hypothetical Mig-21 in WWII

[kitplane01]

Of course there were no Mig-21s in WWII. It's a hypothetical.

How effective would a squadron of early (maybe 1960) Mig-21s be in WWII. They have short range and about no endurance, only 60 rounds for the cannon, and a pair of early K-13 missiles. I'm trying to understand how they shoot down a 1944 fighter.

Can a 1960 missile lock onto anything without a jet exhaust? Can a Mig-21 pilot really get hits with only 60 rounds for the cannon?

And would a Sabre be better suited to WWII combat than a Mig-21? Both have blistering speed compared to anything in WWII.

On the other hand, its hard to imagine a 1960 fighter does not totally outclass anything from 1944!

 

[rank amateur]

Sabre used to have u a really hard time catching the Po2's over Korea..

 

[tyrodtom]

Even a early generation Sidewinder had no ability to shoot down a conventionally powered aircraft, let alone a Atoll missile that was just coming into service with the Soviets in 1960-61.
Minimum engagement range with the early Sidewinders was about 1000 meters, they were intended for use against bombers, or fighters that didn't know you were back there.
Much later generation Sidewinders can even be used in head on encounters, there's some Sidewinder clones out there that have been rumored to even have the ability to take out tanks.

About any flying aircraft could CATCH a PO-2, shooting it down is another matter.

As for shooting it down with guns ?
That would depend on the skills of the slower aircraft's pilot, and if he knew the jet was after him.

 

[Conslaw]

Allied bombers would have something to worry about, but fighters and attack aircraft could maneuver to evade a Mig-21, and against these aircraft, an equal amount of resources spent on piston-engined fighters like the Yak-9 would yield better results.

 

[The Basket]

Not sure if K-13 is going to hit a prop job.

The only way that a MiG-21 is going to hit a prop fighter is boom and zoom or a slashing attack.

Plenty of speed and give it a squirt. One 30mm is plenty. Avoid low level and low speed.

 

[GrauGeist]

Look how hard it was for the Luftwaffe to down the U-2s piloted by the Nacht Hexxen (Night Witches).
The rate of closure was too great and the U-2 would use it's slower speed to it's advantage to evade the attack.

The MiG-21 also had an issue of becoming unstable when it approached it's stall speed, so an attempt to bleed off speed to engage a piston powered fighter would put it at risk.
In addition, the piston powered fighters had much tighter turning radiuses and If the MiG-21 tried to engage in a turning fight, it was screwed.

 

[wuzak]

Fly past and zap them with a burst from the afterburner?

Attempt to destabilise them using the wake?

 

[SaparotRob]

"Splash the Zeros!"

 

[J_P_C]

Not sure if K-13 is going to hit a prop job.

The only way that a MiG-21 is going to hit a prop fighter is boom and zoom or a slashing attack.

Plenty of speed and give it a squirt. One 30mm is plenty. Avoid low level and low speed.

not a chance - this missile was barely able to hit semi-stationary practice target in a form of SAB bomb falling with parachute

 

[wuzak]

The MiG-21 also had an issue of becoming unstable when it approached it's stall speed, so an attempt to bleed off speed to engage a piston powered fighter would put it at risk.
In addition, the piston powered fighters had much tighter turning radiuses and If the MiG-21 tried to engage in a turning fight, it was screwed.

What was its stall speed?

I imagine it would be less difficult to engage a fighter at a high speed cruise (~300mph TAS) than a small observation plane like a Fieseler Fi 156 Storch with a maximum speed barely over 100mph.

 

[Ascent]

In 1963 the British trialled tactics using an EE Lightning Vs a Spitfire as they were worried about fighting the Indonesians who were using P-51's.

In the short time before going to work I don't have time to find a decent article but they are out there. Can't remember what tactics they they came up with.

 

[J_P_C]

In 1963 the British trialled tactics using an EE Lightning Vs a Spitfire as they were worried about fighting the Indonesians who were using P-51's.

In the short time before going to work I don't have time to find a decent article but they are out there. Can't remember what tactics they they came up with.

hit and run - what else may work here???

 

[Ascent]

Hit and run yes but not boom and zoom. It would seem they concluded that you needed to approach from below and behind before engaging the reheat and flying through.

 

[The Basket]

Use the MiG-21s thrust vectoring and ability to transfer to the VTOL hover.

Followed by a few R-73s. Sorted.

 

[tyrodtom]

Use the MiG-21s thrust vectoring and ability to transfer to the VTOL hover.

Followed by a few R-73s. Sorted.

I guess since it's a fantasy anyway, why not make it a complete fantasy.

 

[eagledad]

Ascent,

You beat me to the punch. The British did test the F1 Lightning against a Spitfire, as you stated. The results of the test indicated that the best attack method against the Spitfire was a climbing attack from below and behind, taking advantage of the jet's high thrust-to-weight ratio, and the poor view that the Spitfire pilot had in that area. Also, it was found that a climbing attack from below and behind gave an air-to-air missiles the best chance of aquiring the target.

Source Spitfire at War, Alfred Price, pages 156-157.

FYI

Eagledad

 

[The Basket]

When I was a younger man, I played computer games.

MiG-21 against P-51 and my favorite form of attack was the vertical dive.

Squirt with the guns.

The P-51 was static in the gun sight and I had the perfect non deflection shot.

Spitfire may have had a poor view but his wingman had a better one.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Even a early generation Sidewinder had no ability to shoot down a conventionally powered aircraft, let alone a Atoll missile that was just coming into service with the Soviets in 1960-61.

Our Final Countdown MiG-21s need gun pods, not missiles to rule the skies.

Armament of the MiG-21 - MiG-21.de

History, worldwide service and technical data of the MiG-21

www.mig-21.de

 

[Admiral Beez]

Can a Mig-21 pilot really get hits with only 60 rounds for the cannon?

Add in the A-12 machine gun pod.

 

[J_P_C]

Add in the A-12 machine gun pod.

View attachment 638125

most of the MiG 21 versions had GSh23 built in with 250 rounds - with 2400 rounds/minute fire density/ accuracy factor is pretty much the same like M61 - extra benefit is lower weight of GSh