I don't understand how some planes ended up being so fast

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Sorry it's too late. you were an asshole about it. boot me at will but I won't be talked to like that. if you want be so petty as to boot the son of a hellcat and skyraider pilot, and the nephew of a b-17 bombardier who spent 18 months as a prisoner, and who grew up on airbases and has a life long connection to wwII aircraft over the use of the word "try" feel free, I don't grovel, I don't beg forgiveness.

I don't do well with assumed authority and I will always speak truth to power, and I don't mean politics in this case, I mean the bullying tone in your reply.
 

or course the premise matters. the original post made no distinction about a normal p47. it should have been pointed out as an extraordinary claim with no extraordinary proof. In what world should anybody begin a discussion of anything on a false premise.
 

I thought this forum was about WWII aircraft as in aircraft used in the war.

I don't think I said you said 500mph, it was the original premise.

But thanks for an excellent thoughtful post.
 

I'm fortunate that the 91st bomb group kept its dailes and posted them on their website. I details every mission flown. I've found that there is very little of that kind of information available in such detail. I've not only looked for dailes of other bomb groups tried to find what p47 squadron it was that missed the hand off Dec 1st 43 that got my uncle shot down. I cant find anything.

So when you mention a specific mustang squadron that flew a combat mission dec 1st I thought cool let me check and see what I can find about that squadron, especially since I'd seen no evidence of the merlin mustangs arriving that early.

One little problem. The 354th has a website and it directly contradicts what you quote from that book that so many people think is the most reliable book on the topic

"The first Merlin-engine Mustangs were delivered to the 354th Fighter Group of the 9th Air Force in Great Britain on December 1, 1943. The P-51B first went into action as a fighter on December 17, 1943".

354th Fighter Group During WWII
 

the mustang isn't the mustang until it has the merlin. I'm perfectly aware of what model i was referring too. i would assume you were too. So the premise is not false

I see there are some aerodynamicist on here and I'm reading what they say with interest. I think you're aware of the popular belief that it was a laminar flow wing and I quoted a document backing that claim. That's all I did. I see they've got way better math skills than I do.
 

It's not a story and it's not a conspiracy theory. If you want me to look up The Daily Report from The 91st Bomb Group 322nd Squadron mission on December 1st 1943 I will. That was the target and just the other day I found a photo reconnaissance photograph showing the damage they did. Problem is my uncle didn't make it to the Target because of the Missed P-47 hand off.

I'm not totally sure that was the damage from the December 1st strike but I know they came back to that Target repeatedly. Please don't ask me to try to find the 1946 Congressional hearing I was talking about where they said that company was a political Target as well as a military one. I know what I read. It was eye-opening. I'll try to come back tomorrow and address the rest of what you said in that post. Hearings I'm talking about had nothing to do with the McCarthy hearings.
You must have read some of them many books about the relationship between Wall Street and Nazi Germany. I started out with just a question about where the money had come from to support the Nazi war machine. It's a stunning story and wall Street's ended up to their eyeballs. Profit over the well-being of country or the world continues to this day. American investors we're trying to help I G farben set up offices in Canada when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor.

I'll be back.
 

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Mustang was the RAF name for the machine they ordered , P 51 was the number of the machine the USA ordered. The MKI Mustang had an Allison engine as did the P51A they were generally the same with small differences like specified armament. Over time the two designations have become synonyms when in fact they were actually slightly different.


North American P-51 Mustang variants - Wikipedia

Popular belief is not fact, the P51 has a wing that is popularly referred to as laminar flow but in fact never achieved that as you are now aware.
 
Carboncrank - a couple of misconceptions from your research may be useful to point out. First it was sad that you were free to criticize the fighter escort as the blame for your uncle being shot down. Really?

First, R/V between bomber boxes and assigned fighter escort occurred for multiple reasons.

Bad weather was the number one cause and bad weather, including icing was prevalent on December 1, 1943. The situation that day was near complete undercast with heavy layered overcast to 30,000 feet. The cover was so bad that the Leverkusen target was deselected due to weather and the first BD bombed on alternate Solingen via PFF.

The 3rd Division turned back. All three bomb divisions struggled to form up over England because of the crappy weather. Ditto fighters but they had the advantage of increasing speed to make up time to R/V

Other reasons for missed escort were a.) bad navigation on part of either bomber or fighter, b.) delayed forming of the bomber force causing late arrival at R/V, c.) change of frag order re; times for R/V making it impossible for fighters to get there, d.) bomber task force off course.

Figure out the Fighter mission - some insight may be gained, Dig deeper into the FG histories to figure out who had Target escort. Get the MACR of your Uncle's B-17 to see where and how they were shot down? Clue - of the 5 91st BG losses, 4 were flak, 1 fighter. Get Encounter reports for the FG's mentioned below to get an idea of time and location of claimed German fighters

The LW fighter shoot down was B-17 42-39836, 322BS/91st BG, Pilot Charles Early, 2 KIA 8 POW MACR 1320 Location - Koblenz. The 20th FG P-38s engaged LW at Coblenz and the 4th, 56th, 78th, 352nd, 353rd, 355th and 356th FG P-47s all scored in Cologne/Coblenz/Aachen/Solingen area.

Point - the 4th FG led a Ramrod Target escort and reported that R/V at 1123 and that the 1st BD was late to R/V. They also reported that instead of taking the lead box, they dropped back to second box as the another P-47 FG plus P-38 FG was already in place - i.e. Penetration support probably for the P-47 group and Target escort for the P-38 group.

The 354th FG flew its first mission, led by Don Blakeslee (4FG Gp Ops Officer) on a sweep. It was not a bomber escort mission but a sweep over Knocke/St.Omer/Calais as standard first mission familiarization. The next mission was Penetration escort on the 5th - to Paris. The first Germany mission was the 11th to Emden.

Also, as stated before - the NACA/NAA 45-100 airfoil was Never named Laminar by the engineers. It was always Low Drag.
 
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No, actually the AAF Material Command cleared that all up and issued a memo, to wit:
For the following aircraft, the official designation is Mustang
P-51
A-36
P-51A
P-51B/C
P-51D
P-51K

The first three are Allison powered, with variations on the engine supercharger gear ratios, max power FTH, and Hp. As a point of interest, the P-51A w/WI was always faster than Merlin P-51B/C/D/K until 150 Octane fuel and 75" Boost - below 15,000 feet. As another point of possible interest, the key distinction between the A/B was the ability of the B/C to carry the excellent aerodynamics and airframe to much better performance at 30,000 feet than the P-51A at 20,000.

Had the 8th AF changed bombing altitude doctrine from 25,000 to 15,000 - more like RAF, they would have lost more to flak, but would have had a.) much more effective reliability from P-38, b.) effective escort from P-51A and P-47 much earlier than the introduction of the P-51B. That said, Berlin was still not possible until addition of 85 gallon tank into P-51A and 55 Gallon LE tanks in P-38, so that issue would stall Berlin attacks by a modified P-51A to the same timeframe as P-51B
 

The RAF did use Mustang Mk Is to escort Wellingtons to Germany but these were not plumbed for drop tanks.
Do you know when that memo was dd? I thought the A36 was known as the Apache.
 
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First of all I thank your father for his service. My family served on both sides of the conflict, and in every major conflict since. I'm a combat veteran myself. None of that makes me above the forum rules, or better than anyone else here.

Second of all, it was not bullying. It was telling you the forum ground rules. Everyone, include myself has to abide by them. Maybe you should not be so sensative. You broke the forum rules, and were informed of it. All you had to do was apologize, and say you wont do it again. All would be forgotten, and we would not even be discussibg this.

You should have read them, when you joined the forum.

Third. This forum has many actual combat veterans, sons of combat veterans, and everyone has a life long passion for aviation. So please don't attempt to put yourself on a higher pedastal.

Fourth. Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones. From day one, you have exhibited a holier than thou, above everyone else attitude. My parents taught me to treat others as you would like to be treated. Try it sometime...

When people come in with the "I know it all attitude", everyone else becomes very stand offish.

Now the ball is in your court. You can stop pretending to be above the forum rules, stop pretending to be above everyone else, and be a productive member of this forum, which I think everyone would prefer, or you can leave.
 
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Thank you so much for saying what I wanted to say...
 
pbehn said:
The RAF did use Mustang Mk Is to escort Wellingtons to Germany but these were not plumbed for drop tanks.
Do you know when that memo was dd? I thought the A36 was known as the Apache.
Click to expand...
The name Apache was a short term designation from AAF in 1942, Invader was an informal nomenclature for the A-36 in MTO. Never used by NAA. I'll have to dig up the memo
 
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The 354th arrived in England Nov 1, 1943. The first P-51B-1-NA (5) arrived on 11 November but several pilots got time in 67th Tactical Recon P-51A Mustangs. The total reached 54 P-51B-1s plus three new P-51B-5 by November 30. Blakeslee led the first mission on December 1 with 354FG CO Martin flying #2 on a sweep along France/Belgian coastal area. That date is the first operational date. If you want first victory date -> Glen Eagleston shot down a Me 110 on 13 December, 1944

The info is clearly stated in the 'history' section of the posted website. You just didn't read closely enough.
 
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DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
Hey Bill, what squadron did your dad fly P-51's in again?
Click to expand...
354FS/355FG then 355FG HQ (as contrast with our recent subject 354FG). Also 35th FBW CO flying P-51s out of Johnson AFB near Tokyo. I think he had nearly 1000 hours in P-51B/C/D/K and H. Nothing compared to warbird community but very high with USAF

They were sister Groups relative to Org date and assignment of FS and FG number. The 354Fg has 353, 355 and 356FS. The 355FG had 354,357 and 358. Both groups still very prominent in USAF today. During Vietnam, they both flew F-105s and when 354TFW transitioned to A-7 with 355TFW, the 354FS was TDY to Korat under 354TFW.

IIRC the 354FS just returned from their 7th A-10 deployment from Sandbox, Afghanistan and now Syria. AFAIK they have lost nobody but some A-10s never flew again.
 

Would you say it created less drag than any wing before it?
 
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