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wiking85
Staff Sergeant
That's only with maximum possible fuel, so is using much more than the H16 for that range and doesn't include the He111 being fitted with external tanks to increase its range.
Ideal Luftwaffe starting 1/1/1936
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That's only with maximum possible fuel, so is using much more than the H16 for that range and doesn't include the He111 being fitted with external tanks to increase its range.
- Thread starter
- #182
wiking85
Staff Sergeant
My German isn't great, but I didn't see any ranges on that website.
You can calculate this from the last two rows, showing fuel usage and TAS.
What is the fuel volume for the He-111-H16 when carrying 8 x 250 kg of bombs internally? Where would the drop tank(s) go, in order not to interfere with bombs dropping?
My point exactly. 2400 kg of fuel would mean around 3300 l?
Now, if my math German are any good, here is how the Ju-88 (1939 model) would've fared when trying to attack the target at circa 1100 km (ie, range of excess of 2200 km). Cruising would be at 5000m. It will use dive bombing, hence the need to climb back at 5000m. Outgoing speed would be 350 km/h, returning at 360 km/h. The external bombs waste some 40-70 km/h of speed*, plus how much the racks? A thing well known when trying to compare P-38 with Mosquito.
Part of those 520 L will be used to warm up and take off.
* that also decreases the range
Now, if my math German are any good, here is how the Ju-88 (1939 model) would've fared when trying to attack the target at circa 1100 km (ie, range of excess of 2200 km). Cruising would be at 5000m. It will use dive bombing, hence the need to climb back at 5000m. Outgoing speed would be 350 km/h, returning at 360 km/h. The external bombs waste some 40-70 km/h of speed*, plus how much the racks? A thing well known when trying to compare P-38 with Mosquito.
Part of those 520 L will be used to warm up and take off.
* that also decreases the range
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l'Omnivore Sobriquet
Airman 1st Class
My little contribution...
I think the quest for 'ideal' Lufwaffe should reckon with a few bonds of historical truth, events and choices. Which I list below.
I will therefore submit more of a 'positive' Luftwaffe making good choices, in fact, by late 1941 early 1942 rather than an ideal one starting (deviating) from 1936 onwards. Sorry for that.
Let me explain.
From 1936 onto 41 I see things much as they were, and pretend the following points should be adhered to :
- Herr Wever dies as he historicaly died. The 'Sturz mafia' wins over (that is dive-bombing becomes Lw's favoured attack doctrine.)
- Fw-187 looses its gamble and remains an outsider, on a half-tolerated private venture basis. Hotly defended by its maker all the time, no doubt. Similarly the He-100.
The Bf-110 gets all the glory for the Polish unopposed massacres, the inflated reputation at the beginning of the battle of France and its already deflated one at the end (yes!), does the carrer we know in the Battle of Britain, into Barbarossa and the first Nachjagd squadrons...(moonlit naked eye fashionned then)
I think it is too much to ask the RLM to have it all right from the beginning : discard the Bf-110 as 'not good enough' in 1937 and order the Fw-187 instead at that point [seems beyond reality.] Heavy twin fighters were a novelty at the time, I think its Holland's Fokker twin boomed one that pionneered it in the 1935 or 36 Paris Air Show. Their tactical employ was anybody's guess then, so having RLM choosing a crew of two for a plane of two engines, sided by single-engined ones manned by single crews, is something that should keep us within the bonds of reality, at that point of history. Let Messerschmmitt take it all.
The Bf-110 was after all a tight and narrow fuselage designed around a sitting pilot's cross-section, flew well and seemed fast enough etc. Only the Americans were having it right with the P-38 concept, and indeed Focke-Wulf. (Hurting as it does, the masterpiece Westland Whirlind was too small for the proper concept of a useful twin-engined fighter weapon, of that era.) (Mig 19, F-5 and YF-17 showed the light twins valuable, but at other times.)
- Just as Rolls-Royce put the Griffon on the back burner in the late 30's to concentrate on an urgent realisation of the 'normal' Merlin, so does Daimler-Benz with their own 'inflated' Db-603 : its development is to be withheld as in reallity it was, for the sake of urgent fulfilment of the 'normal' Db-600 then 601.
Considering the British exemple, I think it is fair that RLM does order Daimler to stop toying with their 'world rekord speed car venture' engine and start complete and produce Db-601s for the Messerschmitts instead...
Which doesn't mean RLM has to hate Db-603, at all. Just think Rolls-Royce, London.
- Hm. I think it impossible to discard the German aim for a bright new 2nd generation Kampfluzeug (or Avion de combat as we called it, same words, same mission), which means : go ahead with the Bomber B program !
Urgh !
I simply cannot imagine a 1938 1939 Lufwaffe, RLM, Göering, doing away with the promises and technological appeal of a new bomber designed from scratch to their requirements, fast, high, mighty powerful, safe to its German crew, with barbettes all 'round, sleek and neat looking. All that coming from a high profile field that was after all cutting edge of world's scientific and technical progress : aviation in the late 30's !, the very mark of humankind on its pioneering way to new achievments... (no space conquests then...yet) (today it would be, hum, plasma screens, mobile-phone bracelet computerized watches ???)
"What, a brand new Kampfflugzeug with all the latest gimmicks, technological breakthroughs, clean lines and wunderbar performances to dominate Europe, Central Asia and much of the rest for the coming decade ?? Ach... Nein ! Ve preffer our 1936 converted airliners and flying pencils, bolt-on gondolas, pantalonned stukas : no way !"
Can you imagine that ? I can't.
So, to keep the matter realistic for a German Luftwaffe in a German 1938 we need a running Bomber B program, and we need a Jumo 222.
And planify a smart industrial production of it all please, well in advance of course...
- Worse : the absence of RLM advertisements for a true replacement of the Bf-109, soon enough, may be astonishing, but those actually issued for an advanced developpement of the Bf-110 really shouldn't.
Which means : Me-210 !
The inglorious saga does not have to be as bad as it got, but the beginning should be the same. Including a mediocre design, to say the least, undetected at first, believed workable some time after.
Let's keep it short and summerise :
1. Main choices of the 1936-39 period mostly untouched.
Stukas and medium bombers, aufklärern (reco and spotter planes) in numbers, swarms of fighters and Zestörern (destroyers) : the 'ideal' Lutfwaffe should begin as the Luftwaffe did. Same types, same engines and same priorities. It was coherent and rather effective when you think of it, with just a touch of dary choices and novelties (stukas and massive presence of tactical reconnaissance and prowling destroyers). Realisticaly it allows for some marginal errors of jugments, that can be corrected soon after.
2. Engines.
Jumo 211 and 213, Db601 and 605 given full priorities, scaled-up Db603 on the back burner for urgency matters, BMW untouched, and Jumo 222 in grand design stages for a while. Jumo 213 suffers from Jumo 222 involvment, not much room for a change in all that. Coupled Db-606 idem, but four separate gondolas for the Bomber A project already an accepted backup, if noticably a 2nd choice then (not sturz capable!)
3 planes.
Same as historically.
Ju-88 has the same place it had. Keep the Fw-190 option as it was. He-100 and Fw-187 are loosers, but nonetheless could be acknowledged for their design qualities and potential, and alternative choices (range for the He-100, performances and dogfight behaviour for a one-man crew for the Fw-187) that might be handy should something happen in the war situation. Or industry... They lost a contest, but could be kept on a well-wishing slow development basis.
4. Bomber B and Jumo 222 : go ahead for the wunderkampflugzeug ! and its super engines !
5. Give the Me210 an interrested start, as Mr Messerschmitt seems to insist so much...
I think the quest for 'ideal' Lufwaffe should reckon with a few bonds of historical truth, events and choices. Which I list below.
I will therefore submit more of a 'positive' Luftwaffe making good choices, in fact, by late 1941 early 1942 rather than an ideal one starting (deviating) from 1936 onwards. Sorry for that.
Let me explain.
From 1936 onto 41 I see things much as they were, and pretend the following points should be adhered to :
- Herr Wever dies as he historicaly died. The 'Sturz mafia' wins over (that is dive-bombing becomes Lw's favoured attack doctrine.)
- Fw-187 looses its gamble and remains an outsider, on a half-tolerated private venture basis. Hotly defended by its maker all the time, no doubt. Similarly the He-100.
The Bf-110 gets all the glory for the Polish unopposed massacres, the inflated reputation at the beginning of the battle of France and its already deflated one at the end (yes!), does the carrer we know in the Battle of Britain, into Barbarossa and the first Nachjagd squadrons...(moonlit naked eye fashionned then)
I think it is too much to ask the RLM to have it all right from the beginning : discard the Bf-110 as 'not good enough' in 1937 and order the Fw-187 instead at that point [seems beyond reality.] Heavy twin fighters were a novelty at the time, I think its Holland's Fokker twin boomed one that pionneered it in the 1935 or 36 Paris Air Show. Their tactical employ was anybody's guess then, so having RLM choosing a crew of two for a plane of two engines, sided by single-engined ones manned by single crews, is something that should keep us within the bonds of reality, at that point of history. Let Messerschmmitt take it all.
The Bf-110 was after all a tight and narrow fuselage designed around a sitting pilot's cross-section, flew well and seemed fast enough etc. Only the Americans were having it right with the P-38 concept, and indeed Focke-Wulf. (Hurting as it does, the masterpiece Westland Whirlind was too small for the proper concept of a useful twin-engined fighter weapon, of that era.) (Mig 19, F-5 and YF-17 showed the light twins valuable, but at other times.)
- Just as Rolls-Royce put the Griffon on the back burner in the late 30's to concentrate on an urgent realisation of the 'normal' Merlin, so does Daimler-Benz with their own 'inflated' Db-603 : its development is to be withheld as in reallity it was, for the sake of urgent fulfilment of the 'normal' Db-600 then 601.
Considering the British exemple, I think it is fair that RLM does order Daimler to stop toying with their 'world rekord speed car venture' engine and start complete and produce Db-601s for the Messerschmitts instead...
Which doesn't mean RLM has to hate Db-603, at all. Just think Rolls-Royce, London.
- Hm. I think it impossible to discard the German aim for a bright new 2nd generation Kampfluzeug (or Avion de combat as we called it, same words, same mission), which means : go ahead with the Bomber B program !
Urgh !
I simply cannot imagine a 1938 1939 Lufwaffe, RLM, Göering, doing away with the promises and technological appeal of a new bomber designed from scratch to their requirements, fast, high, mighty powerful, safe to its German crew, with barbettes all 'round, sleek and neat looking. All that coming from a high profile field that was after all cutting edge of world's scientific and technical progress : aviation in the late 30's !, the very mark of humankind on its pioneering way to new achievments... (no space conquests then...yet) (today it would be, hum, plasma screens, mobile-phone bracelet computerized watches ???)
"What, a brand new Kampfflugzeug with all the latest gimmicks, technological breakthroughs, clean lines and wunderbar performances to dominate Europe, Central Asia and much of the rest for the coming decade ?? Ach... Nein ! Ve preffer our 1936 converted airliners and flying pencils, bolt-on gondolas, pantalonned stukas : no way !"
Can you imagine that ? I can't.
So, to keep the matter realistic for a German Luftwaffe in a German 1938 we need a running Bomber B program, and we need a Jumo 222.
And planify a smart industrial production of it all please, well in advance of course...
- Worse : the absence of RLM advertisements for a true replacement of the Bf-109, soon enough, may be astonishing, but those actually issued for an advanced developpement of the Bf-110 really shouldn't.
Which means : Me-210 !
The inglorious saga does not have to be as bad as it got, but the beginning should be the same. Including a mediocre design, to say the least, undetected at first, believed workable some time after.
Let's keep it short and summerise :
1. Main choices of the 1936-39 period mostly untouched.
Stukas and medium bombers, aufklärern (reco and spotter planes) in numbers, swarms of fighters and Zestörern (destroyers) : the 'ideal' Lutfwaffe should begin as the Luftwaffe did. Same types, same engines and same priorities. It was coherent and rather effective when you think of it, with just a touch of dary choices and novelties (stukas and massive presence of tactical reconnaissance and prowling destroyers). Realisticaly it allows for some marginal errors of jugments, that can be corrected soon after.
2. Engines.
Jumo 211 and 213, Db601 and 605 given full priorities, scaled-up Db603 on the back burner for urgency matters, BMW untouched, and Jumo 222 in grand design stages for a while. Jumo 213 suffers from Jumo 222 involvment, not much room for a change in all that. Coupled Db-606 idem, but four separate gondolas for the Bomber A project already an accepted backup, if noticably a 2nd choice then (not sturz capable!)
3 planes.
Same as historically.
Ju-88 has the same place it had. Keep the Fw-190 option as it was. He-100 and Fw-187 are loosers, but nonetheless could be acknowledged for their design qualities and potential, and alternative choices (range for the He-100, performances and dogfight behaviour for a one-man crew for the Fw-187) that might be handy should something happen in the war situation. Or industry... They lost a contest, but could be kept on a well-wishing slow development basis.
4. Bomber B and Jumo 222 : go ahead for the wunderkampflugzeug ! and its super engines !
5. Give the Me210 an interrested start, as Mr Messerschmitt seems to insist so much...
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l'Omnivore Sobriquet
Airman 1st Class
Now let's see what we can do.
Remember that the successes of 1939-1940 had to solidify the choices stated above, good or bad.
For the 1936-1940 period :
- Make Daimler Benz fully comply with your objectives. They're old bourgeois and grand capitalists, yes, but you are nazies. DO NOT engage in cold war with them. Make them cooperate smoothly by flattery, greed or sudden terror (i.e hot war.) Have them co-finance and build that big factory you dream of, anyway make sure that by 1940 everything runs in oil, gains steady momentum in prodution capacity, just as you see their own initiatives with a relaxed benevolent eye.
- Allow existing alternative designs, already well advanced, to carry on their potentful way. Tactically (strategicaly?), and technologicaly they're bound to bear fruits some way. A small scale production cannot hurt either. (note that in those days it was certainly easier to impose some 85% of standardisation over the prodution of war machines, rather than (try) to enforce a full 100% on the various real-world industrial actors, all with their own ways-to-do, in-house formation courses of personnel etc.. This is my theory, it was not numeric economy then. Letting companies build their own alternative products, up to a certain extend (about 15% I'd say), had to be more efficient on the whole than the ideal 100% common production.)
I'm thinking of Focke-Wulf and the Fw-187 certainly.
- Consider news of a possible Jumo-213 using the same block as the 211(s) for all its worth. This has to be very interresting, and could fit existing designs or soon to be, rather fine. It conflicts both jumo 222 and jumo 211 developpment at this stage but already is a good candidate for being the main engine of the Lufwaffe in not a too distant future. Is it a safer bet at this stage than the brand new 222 ? well yes, already. But there are Jumo-211 developments to work on first.
1941-early1942 :
- Put the 'scaled-up' Db-603 back on the front burner. It has potential and you like this engine, just as you like good complacant and smoothly reliable yet inventive Daimler-Benz's managers... Make them stop work on anything else (in the aviation field) than Db601 Db605, and now Db-603 too. Good boys. Start considering applications for the 603 (Do-217 at least.)
- Express your worries and begin open questionning of priorities at Jumo : regarding the state of advancement of the much needed Jumo-213, an engine that will take the place of the 211s on the large Jumo facilities, expected by a good deal of new aircrafts or variants. And regarding the troubles of the 222, suddenly made worse as the Bomber B needs to be heavier than first planned. This should raise professionnal concerns, cold blooded and considering options.
- For the Me-210 as for the Bomber B, it is too soon yet for a dramatic reversal of decisions, but an open questionning at this stage will have positive consequences not too far ahead. At the minimum for both programs, pre-industrialisation on a large scale had now to be acknowledged perilous or premature, and reconversion of a good part of it (half) a most serious work shedule.
- Put the four separated engines He-177B on prototype stage, 2nd choice and non diving as it may be, as soon as the dary architecture of He-177A is confirmed troublesome. After all this new war with 'inferior Ussr' could be a good application for that '2nd rated' but reliable variant of the heavy bomber.
- Keep the historical dedication to the Fw-190 and its BMW engine. Surely the engine will be much needed for many aircrafts considering the lateness of the new Jumos.
Spring-summer 1942 :
This is here, to me, that the 'ideal' Lufwaffe should start diverging.
- Bomber B, Jumo 222. Patatras ! Engine still not ready, the remaining pre-set industrialisation of aircraft cells now certain to be set too soon in place. Harsh decisions required now.
Do away with the Jumo-222, that is put it on the back burner (and develop with little means whatever version that promises to reach operational status someday.)
Give the Ju-288C a chance, the one equipped with the coupled Db-606 (610), providing their installation is not too much buried in the wing as the He-177A experience is now telling. One should not forget that the Ju-288 was very modern and potent, and unlike much written on it quite well adapted for LW's future historical needs. (good survivability in hostile skies, well adapted for small to medium strikes with escort, in a 'raider' spirit.)
- Put the He-177B into production immediately, with whatever engines available at first. Keep its employ against Russia, as the war there seems to 'last a bit'. First versions probably underpowered, but Russia under equipped against it. He-177B is a stop-gap both for the He-177A (until troubbles are out) and the Bomber-B, whether the late coming Ju-288C gives satisfaction, simply arrives, or not. Germany cannot affort large scale strategic bombing anymore, so limited production but without delays. A good tool.
In the East like in the West dive bombing is clearly out of fashion, thanks to thick anti-aircraft defenses, now to be met about everywhere. So drop diving requirements on any large plane now. Udet is long dead too.
-Put Daimler's Db-603 in full operationnal status and production, now.
The Do-217 version with enlarged wings will welcome it fine.
Also the He-219. Like many I reckon the soundness of Milch's decision to favor the Ju-88G over the He-219 for a standard night fighter, but considering that Jumo-213 in any scenario had to come noticably later than the Db-603, that Ju-88 equipped with BMW where rather inferior, and that the Bomber Offensive was by now certain to last and gain momentum : just give clear orders to Heinkel to set up 50ac/month production without, that's important, without hesitations.
Besides, when Jumo-222 will become available on a moderate scall one must remember how good a He-219 equipped with such engines had to be : if rather a luxury but this time a superior bomber-destroyer than even a true Ju-88G, by night if not by day, and a good Mosquito pursuer night and day of historical consequences, even in small number (jumos 222, no radar aerial by day.) The He-219 option for limited serial production is good because, with Db-603s it is better than BMW Ju-88s for 1943, stil very good in the 1944 brands and the only forseeable recipent for later coming Jumo-222 (let the Do-217 have its Db-603s instead) and therefore superior to Ju-88G then... Filling quality demands for later 1944-45 needs (night and day pursuit or destroyer, reconnaissance too). If always in small number and expensive...
- Put Fw-190C into final developpement and aim production for somewhere in 1943. This does obvious betterments in the west and barely needs comments. Of course plannify a Jumo-213 equipped Dora version too, then later complete redesigns for both in the Ta-152 C and H breeds. Fw-190C could be put in moderate production at first considering availabilities. History will then increase demand.
- Set-up a competition for a replacement single fighter using Db's 603. This should return Me-309, Fw-190C (hurried) then Ta-152C (big promises from Kurt Tank), and probably some adapted He-100. Order the hurried Fw-190C whoever wins he competition ! (bound to be delayed by 'not ready' problems, Messerschmitt prbbly wishing to substitute the Me-209 in place of the Me-309, Focke-Wulf the 'redesigned' Ta-152...) Fw-190Cs then Ds have to be put in production without delay as soon as engines are available. Small quantities at first eventually, but they must hit the Staffeln soon to put problems into the Westerners' offensive, make them loose comfort and derail their plans.
- It is hard to believe but reallity must now be faced in all its horror : Messerschmidt has just produced an incurable horrible brat in place of the expected crown prince. Nothing will save it except major surgery. It is a this stage that the Focke-Wulf 187 should make its historical entry. Yes, as an industrial stop-gap for the Me-210 katastophe... With good Db-601s - we supposed the type on continued development - and soon with Db-605s. It is not too late to order sizable quantities in the face of the Me-210 disaster. It will take time to implement mass production (moderate) but this is a decision that could have been taken quite easely then, 'soundly'. Even ignoring how positively history would actualy respond to such an introuction later on (American heavy bombers coming en masse by day, eastern front really lasting this time.. needing more in depth 'work' for which the Fw-187 was perfect, alone or as an escort.) What to do with the reworked Me-210, i.e. Me-410 coming late,r depends on availabilities. But it is a good aircraft, if not revolutionnary anymore.
-Big bat time for the Jumo company ! Must have them sort out and put in production the - all of a sudden - 'so obviously prioritary' Jumo-213... Expected to fit about everything in the standard Luftwaffe from Fw-190D to Ju-88G and 188. I'm quite positive that by following the reasonnable points I've made above, the Jumo-213 could reach operations 6 to 9 months earlier than it did, perhaps a year ?
Make sure they make something out of the Jumo-222 castle, with limited means this time but within forseable future. Let them choose technical requirements themselves. Have something that works, above 2000 hp.
-Put Me-110 back on production as historicaly, for Nachjagt rank and file urgencies until some Me-410 or Me-262 replaces it, in the same role.
-You can now concentrate on jets and rockets, see what it gives.
Remember that the successes of 1939-1940 had to solidify the choices stated above, good or bad.
For the 1936-1940 period :
- Make Daimler Benz fully comply with your objectives. They're old bourgeois and grand capitalists, yes, but you are nazies. DO NOT engage in cold war with them. Make them cooperate smoothly by flattery, greed or sudden terror (i.e hot war.) Have them co-finance and build that big factory you dream of, anyway make sure that by 1940 everything runs in oil, gains steady momentum in prodution capacity, just as you see their own initiatives with a relaxed benevolent eye.
- Allow existing alternative designs, already well advanced, to carry on their potentful way. Tactically (strategicaly?), and technologicaly they're bound to bear fruits some way. A small scale production cannot hurt either. (note that in those days it was certainly easier to impose some 85% of standardisation over the prodution of war machines, rather than (try) to enforce a full 100% on the various real-world industrial actors, all with their own ways-to-do, in-house formation courses of personnel etc.. This is my theory, it was not numeric economy then. Letting companies build their own alternative products, up to a certain extend (about 15% I'd say), had to be more efficient on the whole than the ideal 100% common production.)
I'm thinking of Focke-Wulf and the Fw-187 certainly.
- Consider news of a possible Jumo-213 using the same block as the 211(s) for all its worth. This has to be very interresting, and could fit existing designs or soon to be, rather fine. It conflicts both jumo 222 and jumo 211 developpment at this stage but already is a good candidate for being the main engine of the Lufwaffe in not a too distant future. Is it a safer bet at this stage than the brand new 222 ? well yes, already. But there are Jumo-211 developments to work on first.
1941-early1942 :
- Put the 'scaled-up' Db-603 back on the front burner. It has potential and you like this engine, just as you like good complacant and smoothly reliable yet inventive Daimler-Benz's managers... Make them stop work on anything else (in the aviation field) than Db601 Db605, and now Db-603 too. Good boys. Start considering applications for the 603 (Do-217 at least.)
- Express your worries and begin open questionning of priorities at Jumo : regarding the state of advancement of the much needed Jumo-213, an engine that will take the place of the 211s on the large Jumo facilities, expected by a good deal of new aircrafts or variants. And regarding the troubles of the 222, suddenly made worse as the Bomber B needs to be heavier than first planned. This should raise professionnal concerns, cold blooded and considering options.
- For the Me-210 as for the Bomber B, it is too soon yet for a dramatic reversal of decisions, but an open questionning at this stage will have positive consequences not too far ahead. At the minimum for both programs, pre-industrialisation on a large scale had now to be acknowledged perilous or premature, and reconversion of a good part of it (half) a most serious work shedule.
- Put the four separated engines He-177B on prototype stage, 2nd choice and non diving as it may be, as soon as the dary architecture of He-177A is confirmed troublesome. After all this new war with 'inferior Ussr' could be a good application for that '2nd rated' but reliable variant of the heavy bomber.
- Keep the historical dedication to the Fw-190 and its BMW engine. Surely the engine will be much needed for many aircrafts considering the lateness of the new Jumos.
Spring-summer 1942 :
This is here, to me, that the 'ideal' Lufwaffe should start diverging.
- Bomber B, Jumo 222. Patatras ! Engine still not ready, the remaining pre-set industrialisation of aircraft cells now certain to be set too soon in place. Harsh decisions required now.
Do away with the Jumo-222, that is put it on the back burner (and develop with little means whatever version that promises to reach operational status someday.)
Give the Ju-288C a chance, the one equipped with the coupled Db-606 (610), providing their installation is not too much buried in the wing as the He-177A experience is now telling. One should not forget that the Ju-288 was very modern and potent, and unlike much written on it quite well adapted for LW's future historical needs. (good survivability in hostile skies, well adapted for small to medium strikes with escort, in a 'raider' spirit.)
- Put the He-177B into production immediately, with whatever engines available at first. Keep its employ against Russia, as the war there seems to 'last a bit'. First versions probably underpowered, but Russia under equipped against it. He-177B is a stop-gap both for the He-177A (until troubbles are out) and the Bomber-B, whether the late coming Ju-288C gives satisfaction, simply arrives, or not. Germany cannot affort large scale strategic bombing anymore, so limited production but without delays. A good tool.
In the East like in the West dive bombing is clearly out of fashion, thanks to thick anti-aircraft defenses, now to be met about everywhere. So drop diving requirements on any large plane now. Udet is long dead too.
-Put Daimler's Db-603 in full operationnal status and production, now.
The Do-217 version with enlarged wings will welcome it fine.
Also the He-219. Like many I reckon the soundness of Milch's decision to favor the Ju-88G over the He-219 for a standard night fighter, but considering that Jumo-213 in any scenario had to come noticably later than the Db-603, that Ju-88 equipped with BMW where rather inferior, and that the Bomber Offensive was by now certain to last and gain momentum : just give clear orders to Heinkel to set up 50ac/month production without, that's important, without hesitations.
Besides, when Jumo-222 will become available on a moderate scall one must remember how good a He-219 equipped with such engines had to be : if rather a luxury but this time a superior bomber-destroyer than even a true Ju-88G, by night if not by day, and a good Mosquito pursuer night and day of historical consequences, even in small number (jumos 222, no radar aerial by day.) The He-219 option for limited serial production is good because, with Db-603s it is better than BMW Ju-88s for 1943, stil very good in the 1944 brands and the only forseeable recipent for later coming Jumo-222 (let the Do-217 have its Db-603s instead) and therefore superior to Ju-88G then... Filling quality demands for later 1944-45 needs (night and day pursuit or destroyer, reconnaissance too). If always in small number and expensive...
- Put Fw-190C into final developpement and aim production for somewhere in 1943. This does obvious betterments in the west and barely needs comments. Of course plannify a Jumo-213 equipped Dora version too, then later complete redesigns for both in the Ta-152 C and H breeds. Fw-190C could be put in moderate production at first considering availabilities. History will then increase demand.
- Set-up a competition for a replacement single fighter using Db's 603. This should return Me-309, Fw-190C (hurried) then Ta-152C (big promises from Kurt Tank), and probably some adapted He-100. Order the hurried Fw-190C whoever wins he competition ! (bound to be delayed by 'not ready' problems, Messerschmitt prbbly wishing to substitute the Me-209 in place of the Me-309, Focke-Wulf the 'redesigned' Ta-152...) Fw-190Cs then Ds have to be put in production without delay as soon as engines are available. Small quantities at first eventually, but they must hit the Staffeln soon to put problems into the Westerners' offensive, make them loose comfort and derail their plans.
- It is hard to believe but reallity must now be faced in all its horror : Messerschmidt has just produced an incurable horrible brat in place of the expected crown prince. Nothing will save it except major surgery. It is a this stage that the Focke-Wulf 187 should make its historical entry. Yes, as an industrial stop-gap for the Me-210 katastophe... With good Db-601s - we supposed the type on continued development - and soon with Db-605s. It is not too late to order sizable quantities in the face of the Me-210 disaster. It will take time to implement mass production (moderate) but this is a decision that could have been taken quite easely then, 'soundly'. Even ignoring how positively history would actualy respond to such an introuction later on (American heavy bombers coming en masse by day, eastern front really lasting this time.. needing more in depth 'work' for which the Fw-187 was perfect, alone or as an escort.) What to do with the reworked Me-210, i.e. Me-410 coming late,r depends on availabilities. But it is a good aircraft, if not revolutionnary anymore.
-Big bat time for the Jumo company ! Must have them sort out and put in production the - all of a sudden - 'so obviously prioritary' Jumo-213... Expected to fit about everything in the standard Luftwaffe from Fw-190D to Ju-88G and 188. I'm quite positive that by following the reasonnable points I've made above, the Jumo-213 could reach operations 6 to 9 months earlier than it did, perhaps a year ?
Make sure they make something out of the Jumo-222 castle, with limited means this time but within forseable future. Let them choose technical requirements themselves. Have something that works, above 2000 hp.
-Put Me-110 back on production as historicaly, for Nachjagt rank and file urgencies until some Me-410 or Me-262 replaces it, in the same role.
-You can now concentrate on jets and rockets, see what it gives.
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l'Omnivore Sobriquet
Airman 1st Class
For the Stuka by early 1942 it was too soon to cancel anything. Putting the latest version in production, sticking with new field requirements the obvious next step.
The ambitious replacement Ju-187 is certainly a victim or the wastages of Ju-288 et al. saga, so doesn't get build. The Jabo Fw-190 imposes itelf in increasing obviousness.
Note that a Jabo (i.e "JagtBomber" - fighter-bomber) Fw-187 has good potential too, taking with better success the task of more in-depth strikes attributed to Bf-110 and some Ju-88 before. But it's the 190 as historicaly that gets the bulk of Jabo.
The Stuka armed with 37mm guns under each wing was a difficult ship to fly, and therefore quite dangerous to be sent zig-zaging above dense battle-fields, but as we know could find a few 'old-hands' to put it into good use there. But that doesn't save a declining career.
I do not know enough the realities of night air-to-ground fighting so cannot tell but it seems the Ju-87 with its goods maneuvrability and safety in low speed flight (when normally laden), 2 pairs of eyes sitting in not too bad a view-spot, could become a good 'night ground hunter'.
Something in between the Po-2 little harasser and the rocket-equipped P-61 converted to opportunity patrols at the end of the Europpan war.
It certainly got this missions through time and forced events, yet I wonder if it could have been more thouroughtly planified.
A specialised version of the Fw-189 twin-boomer could have been interesting too for the role. (featuring a new nacelle reasonnably armoured, with a single pilot in front in a Fw-190 style cockpit, then a small bomb bay that can also be epuipped with guns or fuel tanks, then a second crew member in a good view&shoot disposition. 20 mms guns at wing roots, perhaps smaller calibres in the nose, if there's room. I think it should have remained light enought to maintain the 189's flight qualities.)
The ambitious replacement Ju-187 is certainly a victim or the wastages of Ju-288 et al. saga, so doesn't get build. The Jabo Fw-190 imposes itelf in increasing obviousness.
Note that a Jabo (i.e "JagtBomber" - fighter-bomber) Fw-187 has good potential too, taking with better success the task of more in-depth strikes attributed to Bf-110 and some Ju-88 before. But it's the 190 as historicaly that gets the bulk of Jabo.
The Stuka armed with 37mm guns under each wing was a difficult ship to fly, and therefore quite dangerous to be sent zig-zaging above dense battle-fields, but as we know could find a few 'old-hands' to put it into good use there. But that doesn't save a declining career.
I do not know enough the realities of night air-to-ground fighting so cannot tell but it seems the Ju-87 with its goods maneuvrability and safety in low speed flight (when normally laden), 2 pairs of eyes sitting in not too bad a view-spot, could become a good 'night ground hunter'.
Something in between the Po-2 little harasser and the rocket-equipped P-61 converted to opportunity patrols at the end of the Europpan war.
It certainly got this missions through time and forced events, yet I wonder if it could have been more thouroughtly planified.
A specialised version of the Fw-189 twin-boomer could have been interesting too for the role. (featuring a new nacelle reasonnably armoured, with a single pilot in front in a Fw-190 style cockpit, then a small bomb bay that can also be epuipped with guns or fuel tanks, then a second crew member in a good view&shoot disposition. 20 mms guns at wing roots, perhaps smaller calibres in the nose, if there's room. I think it should have remained light enought to maintain the 189's flight qualities.)
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I was thinking along two possible axes of development. Each includes a cannon, 20 to 37mm, that would be fired through the prop shaft. Somewhere at the start of this thread Ive suggested that Jumo modifies the 211 line of engines to allow for the prop cannon. So the further development of the Ju-87A/B would include a cannon, and will retain dive brakes all the way. Maybe it would be good to modify the U/C, something along what the Il-2 had. Installation of the 37mm would probably dictate rehashing of the crew compartment?
The Fw-190 could also use such modification, maybe also giving it the dive brakes? Ideally it would be a combination of Yak-9T's and A-36's best features? Obviously, the V-12 engine need to be employed, preferably a modification capable of sing the C3 fuel, for more power down low. The wing root guns will have their ammo relocated to the wings, so there is more space for the 37mm ammo. The pilot's quarters would also need relocation a bit back? Some armor for the cooling system is also needed.
The Fw-190 could also use such modification, maybe also giving it the dive brakes? Ideally it would be a combination of Yak-9T's and A-36's best features? Obviously, the V-12 engine need to be employed, preferably a modification capable of sing the C3 fuel, for more power down low. The wing root guns will have their ammo relocated to the wings, so there is more space for the 37mm ammo. The pilot's quarters would also need relocation a bit back? Some armor for the cooling system is also needed.
What do you think that the RLM did with Daimler Benz historically?
Daimler-Benz was a large company with plants and subsidiaries all over Germany. It's principal plant in the Berlin area was at Marienfelde. The Genshagen plant was built as a modern facility expressly to produce aero engines.
Here is not the place for the Machievellian ins and outs of the RLM v DB negotiations that led to the establishment of the Genshagen plant, but let's stick to the facts.
The Daimler-Benz Motor Company Genshagen was formed in January 1936 as a subsidiary of Daimler-Benz AG to produce aero engines.
The Marienfelde plant became a repair and parts plant according to RLM (not Daimler Benz) wishes.
The new company was capitalised to the tune of RM 14 million,13.75 million from the RLM and a nominal 0.75 million from Daimler Benz. This capital was soon increase to RM 20 million,entirely at RLM expense. Daimler-Benz retained an option to buy the new plant.
The plant was built in eight months. The first engine, a DB 600 made from parts from Marienfelde, was completed in February 1937.
The skilled labour force came from Daimler Benz's South German plants and from BMW. There were 5,813 workers by the summer of 1937. This was only achieved by direct intervention from the RLM. You can imagine how thrilled BMW were to lose skilled workers and engineers to a competitor. I don't believe such enforced management of skilled labour would have been possible in one of the democracies, but, as you said, Daimler Benz were dealing with the Nazi state.
I would suggest that both the level of investment and speed with which the plans were effected would imply that production of Daimler-Benz aero engines was a priority for the RLM in the late nineteen thirties and that the RLM more or less dictated the way in which Daimler Benz operated. It did this politically and financially.
Cheers
Steve
l'Omnivore Sobriquet
Airman 1st Class
Yes, many thanks Steve. Great infos.
And with all that, it seems the RLM was still sightly, unsatisfied with, well, Daimler-Benz AG. I wouldn't have been, but apparently they were. Go figure...
And with all that, it seems the RLM was still sightly, unsatisfied with, well, Daimler-Benz AG. I wouldn't have been, but apparently they were. Go figure...
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Any thought about the night fighter(s)? How big should it be? Maybe employ a smaller NF 1st (no such need anyway this early, no excess engine power to haul around half a dozen cannons and many crew members), later substituted by a larger NF as a dedicated bomber killer? Or simply modify the Schnellbomber for NF duties?
How should the air-to-air weaponry be developed? Air-to-ground?
How should the air-to-air weaponry be developed? Air-to-ground?
- Thread starter
- #195
wiking85
Staff Sergeant
As far as early night fighters the Bf110 if production in this scenario, would be fine until the Ju88 was adapted to the role. The Do215B is good too, as would be modifying older Do17s into night fighters. Initially one Geschwader would be enough through 1941.
I'd say making a beeline for the MG151 series should be done as quickly as possible, along with 30mm cannons. Anything over 30mm should not be used for air-to-air combat, but for ground attack the 50mm autocannon might be worthwhile. Rockets as soon as they are conceived of should be worked on for AA and air to ground attacks for jabos.
- Thread starter
- #196
wiking85
Staff Sergeant
Long range Strategic bombers:
I think we all agree that a four propellor He177B would be ideal. Assuming its available in Geschwader strength by Spring/Summer 1942 with the DB603 in the four separate engine layout, what are its targets? I imagine something in Russia, but what?
I think we all agree that a four propellor He177B would be ideal. Assuming its available in Geschwader strength by Spring/Summer 1942 with the DB603 in the four separate engine layout, what are its targets? I imagine something in Russia, but what?
That had more to do with the failure of Daimler Benz to deliver on many of its promises. Just about every major player in the German aircraft industry was guilty of this. There were also systemic problems in the way that the German industry developed engines and airframes which could lead to a three way argument between the manufacturer of the engine/power egg and the manufacturer of the airframe with the RLM in the middle, deploying its usually woeful management techniques
Cheers
Steve
That had more to do with the failure of Daimler Benz to deliver on many of its promises. Just about every major player in the German aircraft industry was guilty of this. There were also systemic problems in the way that the German industry developed engines and airframes which could lead to a three way argument between the manufacturer of the engine/power egg and the manufacturer of the airframe with the RLM in the middle, deploying its usually woeful management techniques
Cheers
Steve
It is interesting to note how many aircraft designs were proposed with engines that never became available or were much delayed. The original He 219 design was based on the DB 603G. The majority of He 219s were produced with the DB603A, an engine that left the plane underpowered in the opinion of Eric Brown. Another example concerns the Hs 130A, which was intended to use the DB 601D with two stage supercharger.
Of course DB wasn't alone. Certainly there was lots of blame to go around. I suspect there was an environment where management had to exude optimism, with failures needing to be offset by new (and unrealizable) promises.
Seems to me that we'd run out of DB 603s
Joke aside, I'd rather see the 4-mot designed around easily available engines, like DB-601 or Jumo 211. Later to receive the BMW 801s, in case the DB-603 starts replacing the 801s in the Fw-190.
The targets should be factories and oil facilities, obviously (if can be reached), but also troop concentrations, bridges, railroad junctions, provided the guided bombs are developed and produced. A decent LR fighter would be needed, like Fw-187 or, with greater internal fuel tankage, the Fw-190.
- Thread starter
- #200
wiking85
Staff Sergeant
Seems to me that we'd run out of DB 603s
Joke aside, I'd rather see the 4-mot designed around easily available engines, like DB-601 or Jumo 211. Later to receive the BMW 801s, in case the DB-603 starts replacing the 801s in the Fw-190.
The targets should be factories and oil facilities, obviously (if can be reached), but also troop concentrations, bridges, railroad junctions, provided the guided bombs are developed and produced. A decent LR fighter would be needed, like Fw-187 or, with greater internal fuel tankage, the Fw-190.
Like we said before plan an Ostmark for the DB603 the moment Austria is annexed; it should be partially up and running by mid 1941.
Would a 3000 liter internal fuel (and externally mountable 900 liter drop tank) FW187 with DB605s or later Jumo 213s (with two stage superchargers) that is pressurized be able to reach the Urals and return? Supposedly the 1942 variant had that configuration which gave it excellent range and high altitude performance for long range escort, but I didn't see hypothetical range tables.
Also any clue about the efficacy of the SD 1000 bomb was good for troop concentration carpet bombing? I read it wasn't intended as an AP bomb, but rather a fragmentation bomb. The He177 could carry six for a max internal load of 6 tons, which would have rough against a concentration of Soviet troops in the open:
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/bombs.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_177#Specifications_.28He_177_A-5.2FR2.29
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