If no Sea Gladiator, what replaces the Hawker Nimrod?

[Admiral Beez]

They could get a license to produce the F3F as the successor

Not a bad idea, as Canada was already producing the Grumman Goblin under license as a fighter for the RCAF. I think you just chose our most likely candidate.

Though lack of folding wings cancels out deployment on the RN's latest carrier HMS Ark Royal and the planned Illustrious class.

 

[Shortround6]

in reverse order.
The Bristol 133 to the ill fated F.7/30 specification although a private venture, it did not use the favored engine.

and the Bristol 123 which did use the favored engine.

Both planes had problems.

In 1937 there simply wasn't any fighter plane available in a suitable stage of development for production except the Gladiator, if you want to take out the Gladiator you are either left with nothing or trying to buy foreign aircraft (American).

 

[Shortround6]

Not a bad idea, as Canada was already producing the Grumman Goblin under license as a fighter for the RCAF. I think you just chose our most likely candidate.



Though lack of folding wings cancels out deployment on the RN's latest carrier HMS Ark Royal and the planned Illustrious class.

It is also a sitting duck/target. buying a plane that made it's first flight in 1931 in 1937/38 is hardly a good idea or likely to get you very far in a shooting war.

 

[Hardlydank]

It is also a sitting duck/target. buying a plane that made it's first flight in 1931 in 1937/38 is hardly a good idea or likely to get you very far in a shooting war.

A Admiral Beez meant that the F3F could be chosen, like I suggested in my post, at least I think that was the implication. If I'm interpreting correctly, he mentioned the Goblin to say that since Canada was already producing a predecessor to the F3F, the factories would already have most of what they needed to quickly get the F3F into production. Those Canadian produced F3Fs could then be shipped to Britain for service.

Also, both the F2F and the Goblin (aka FF) have mostly better specs than the Nimrod, even being lighter which surprised me. If Grumman's planes wouldn't work for them, they could buy the Curtiss BF2C Goshawk

 

[tomo pauk]

Stick a better engine on the Nimrod?

 

[fastmongrel]

What is a Sea Gladiator? It doesn't exist, that's why we're chatting today. We're trying to replace the Nimrod without the Gladiator. If you want to stay on topic you need to compare the A5M and F3F with the Nimrod.
If the RN is still operating the Nimrod in January 1940, the answer is plenty. Of course serving alongside the Nimrod is the Skua, so that's something modern at least.

Did Bristol propose a successor to the Bulldog that could be considered?

I was replying to a comment that implied that the FAAs existing aircraft were very bad but they weren't they were roughly similar to what the US and Japan had.

Ordering aircraft from abroad prewar is not going to be in time unless those orders are placed in about 1937. France ordered hundreds if not thousands of aircraft from the USA spending a massive chunk of money. By June 1940 they received a handful of Hawks and Maryland's.

 

[buffnut453]

The UK is not going to procure US aircraft before 1937. Sorry but it's just not going to happen. The first American aircraft purchased by the UK was the Lockheed Hudson in early 1939. Ordering American aircraft 3 years prior to that requires a degree of foresight that simply didn't exist, not to mention the higher priority for funds to aid post-depression recovery. If there's no Gladiator and hence no Sea Gladiator, then the UK will just soldier on with the Hawker Fury and Nimrod until the Hurricane/Sea Hurricane show up.

 

[nuuumannn]

I suspect that one problem at this time is about the time when the FAA was being placed under RN control, and the staff expertise was still developing. Could the FAA even ask the right questions to develop a Nimrod replacement? I think the answer is "No!" as shown by the Blackburn Roc.

Yup, timing is everything and the navy is late to the party regarding modern single-seaters in service within a suitable time frame of the war. In the mid 1930s, there were few who predicted Britain would be at war by the end of the decade, so there wasn't as much urgency as perhaps there should have been in hindsight, but navy personel had discussed carrier based single-seaters by 1937, a few admirals agreeing that a Hurricane derivative was the best course of action. At that time however, the RAF still controls the FAA, but realistically the Hurri and a Spitfire derivative (a la Joe Smith of Supermarine's 1938 proposal) are the only feasible solutions, which means the FAA - taking into account the transfer of control from the RAF and rewriting existing specifications, like traditionally, is going to have to wait until 1941 at the earliest for its single-seat fighter, as it turned out in reality.

 

[fastmongrel]

Hawker had built the PV3 as a competitor for the contract won by the Gladiator. It looks like a souped up Hawker Fury though I understand it owes a lot to the Hurricane prototype. It managed 225mph on a 550hp RR Goshawk. Given the latest version of the RR Kestrel or even a Peregrine it should be able to match the Gladiator.

Hawker P.V.3 - Wikipedia

I shall name it the Hawker Oberon

 

[Admiral Beez]

Given what the FAA ordered in about this timeframe, they would order a monoplane flying airbrake from Blackburn.

Oh, you asked for it!

Blackburn F.7/30

 

[RW Mk. III]

Oh, you asked for it!

Blackburn F.7/30

View attachment 581935

I was waiting for this to turn up! It's a great looking thing. But not a great looking airplane!

 

[buffnut453]

This aircraft was brought to you by the Flying Prevention Society - it's just too ugly to fly. Part of the pilot's personal equipment was a paper bag that he would put over his head to hide his embarrassment at being seen in such an abomination.

 

[RW Mk. III]

This aircraft was brought to you by the Flying Prevention Society - it's just too ugly to fly. Part of the pilot's personal equipment was a paper bag that he would put over his head to hide his embarrassment at being seen in such an abomination.

"That's the best we could do." -Blackburn

 

[Admiral Beez]

Hawker had built the PV3 as a competitor for the contract won by the Gladiator. It looks like a souped up Hawker Fury though I understand it owes a lot to the Hurricane prototype. It managed 225mph on a 550hp RR Goshawk. Given the latest version of the RR Kestrel or even a Peregrine it should be able to match the Gladiator.

Hawker P.V.3 - Wikipedia

I shall name it the Hawker Oberon

I like it, and it gives Hawker a continuance or supplier of fighters to the FAA, giving better odds of an earlier Sea Hurricane.

 

[buffnut453]

"That's the best we could do." -Blackburn

It takes years of training and practice, and not a small amount of skill, to make something THAT ugly!

 

[glennasher]

It takes years of training and practice, and not a small amount of skill, to make something THAT ugly!

And many years in France, learning that skill.

 

[Admiral Beez]

It takes years of training and practice, and not a small amount of skill, to make something THAT ugly!

Maybe its designer apprenticed at Supermarine.

 

[Hardlydank]

The Dewoitine D.373 or D.376 would be great options to replace the Nimrod imo. Both are the naval version of the D.37 series, the only difference apparently being that the D.376 had folding wings. The D.501 also had a naval version but i can't find a picture of one with an arrestor hook. Buying French would mean that delivery of the planes would be much faster as well.
D.501 in Aeronavale service (again, no arrestor hook?)

D.373 in Aeronavale service

 

[buffnut453]

And the last time the Brit military bought a French-built aircraft was...hmmm, NEVER! (ok, they did buy a few SPAD VIIs and Nieuports during WW1...but nothing since).

Joking aside, the opposite throttle on French aircraft would be a nightmare for UK operations...unless, of course, the throttle system was changed (which, of course, increases price and delays operational fielding).

 

[RW Mk. III]

And the last time the Brit military bought a French-built aircraft was...hmmm, NEVER! (ok, they did buy a few SPAD VIIs and Nieuports during WW1...but nothing since).

Joking aside, the opposite throttle on French aircraft would be a nightmare for UK operations...unless, of course, the throttle system was changed (which, of course, increases price and delays operational fielding).

I do wonder how the field of Gladiator replacements would look if the air Ministry didn't engage in that evaporative cooling romance during the 1930's. The Supermarine F7/30 could have been a similar transitional fighter to the Dewoitine had they been able to give it a more conventional engine. Can't help but suspect designing the airframe as a an airframe, but also a radiator (for all intents and purposes) introduced excessive difficulty.