If the RAF had been defeated in the Battle of Britain

[Kryten]

Or far more likely our novice pilot narrator has simply mistook a Do17 for Bf110!

Anyone who thinks you can chase a Hurricane round in a Do17 is having a laugh!

 

[Kryten]

No, he was generalising about the armament. He and Tuck were holding 1/24 scale Airfix models of a Spitfire and Bf 109 E to illustrate their points.
I bet that old documentary is available somewhere online, MY memory of it is slightly vague .
Cheers
Steve

I have read many anecdotes by BoB pilots who claimed the Bf109 had a 20mm in the spinner during the battle, obviously an error, but just because they flew in the war doesn't mean they are nerdy plane fanatics like us, aircraft recognition was not exactly proficient all the way through the war.

 

[stona]

See about 2.20 in this clip for two 'experts' not getting the Bf 109 E armament quite right. The model is of an Emil and the cut away shows the spinner of an Emil, but they describe a mixture of armament not applicable to the E but a sort of hybrid of it and later types.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yaPiTrHAL8

It's not quite how I remembered it, which is another demonstration of the fallibility of human memory, but close enough!

Cheers

Steve

 

[rochie]

Think world would be a better place if we all spoke like that
Bader is not everyone's cup of tea but a Hero of mine

 

[Koopernic]

The Me 109F1 had a motor canon.

This is the quartermaster generals report on DB601N engines in service. It also notes the number of Me 109F1 in service.

Bader was shot down over France in August 1941, well after the BoB was over but also by then Me 109 F was in service.

And yes I've heard of Me 109F having the wing guns and the nose gun for a short time. There is a photo with Galland, Goering and an F2 all in it.

On the Generalluftzeugmeister meeting on the 22nd January 1941, the Generalstab pointed out the following figures on the number of 'active' DB 601N installed, referring to reports from the units on 1st of January, thus giving us a good picture on the number of Bf 109E-../N types in frontline service on the 1st of January : 2

in Bf 109s
Bf 109E-1 : 16 pcs, Bf 109E-3 : 1 pc, Bf 109E-4 : 54 pcs, Bf 109E-6 : 1 pc, Bf 109E-7 : 34 pcs, Bf 109E-8 : 2pcs. Bf 109F-1 : 5 pcs.

Total 112 Bf 109E with DB 601N present in service, plus 5 Bf 109F.

in Bf 110s
Bf 110C-1 : 4 pcs, Bf 110C-4 : 40 pcs, Bf 110C-5 : 12, Bf 110C-7 : 14 pcs, Bf 110D-0 : 18 pcs, Bf 110D-2 : 20 pcs, Bf 110D-3 : 8 pcs, BF 110E-1 : 176 pcs, Bf 110E-2 : 14 pcs.

Total : 306 engines, ie. 153 Bf 110s with DB 601N present in service.

in Misc. types
He 111P : 8 pcs, Do 215 : 68 pcs.

Note how many of these higher powered much higher altitude engines are being "wasted" on Me 110 in an attempt to make it competitive.

 

[Shortround6]

Still pushing the Fw 187?

I notice that they "wasted" 76 engines on He 111s and Do 215s but of course the DO-215 with DB 601N engines could easily handle a Hurricane while a Bf 110 with the same engines could not?

I guess the British wasted hundreds (if not thousands) of Merlin XX engines on the Hurricane II?

I do like the "much higher altitude engines" bit as I believe the FTH for the 601N was a whopping 400 meters higher than the 601A-1. This is without the emergency over revving of the engine/s above 5,500 meters. This over revving would increase the supercharger impeller speed by around 2000rpm and so increase the height at which a give level of power would be obtained. Was the extra 2000rpm ( I can't be bothered to find the exact gear ratio of the supercharger with the fluid coupling locked up) of the impeller responsible for the extra 400 meters in altitude?

One does wonder how well a 109 with a 601A-1 engine running at 2600rpm at 6000 meters would compare to a 601N powered 109 also running at 2600rpm at 6000 meters?

 

[tomo pauk]

The increase of the compression ratio when going from DB 601A to the 601N probably was self-inflicted wound, that cost plenty of HP. It needed 96, or 100 oct fuel (depending what one reads) needed to get just +4.5 psi worth of boost - much less than Merlin III was getting on just 87 oct fuel.

...
Note how many of these higher powered much higher altitude engines are being "wasted" on Me 110 in an attempt to make it competitive.

Not only in Nazi Germany there were many cases of perspective and/or most numerous fighters receiveing the 2nd or even 3rd tier engines.

 

[Juha2]

Or far more likely our novice pilot narrator has simply mistook a Do17 for Bf110!

Anyone who thinks you can chase a Hurricane round in a Do17 is having a laugh!

In fact Roland Beamont told that kind of story in his memoirs or one of his articles in Aeroplane Monthly magazines, happened during the BoF and at low level. Do 17 was surprisingly manouvrable plane and B. was very surprised by the aggressiveness of the Do pilot. And as they were flying circles a while, B. probably had more time to look his adversary more closely than was usual during an aerial combat.

Ps. Found it, in Chaz Bowyer's Hurricane at War, pp. 30 & 32. It is very improbable that Beaumont would have mistaken Bf 110 for Do 17 because he had just been combat with 110s and another D0 17. It took less than 2 turns to reverve situation after which B. with engine boost over-ride pulled, banking into position for a broad deflection shot.but after three rounds B. run out of ammo. B. disengagd using all the Hurii's manoeuvrability and full over-boost to roll away to the right from the lefthand circle, and then pushed the nose down to 50 feet, Do came round after B. firing a few more burst from steadily increasing range and then pulled up, rocking his wings before turning away.

 

[pbehn]

Poor Douglas must be turning in his grave trying to shake that umlaut out of his name.

 

[stona]

The Me 109F1 had a motor canon.

Bader was shot down over France in August 1941, well after the BoB was over but also by then Me 109 F was in service.

And yes I've heard of Me 109F having the wing guns and the nose gun for a short time. There is a photo with Galland, Goering and an F2 all in it.

They are talking about the BoB and referring to an E. The producers even cut away to a shot of an Emil spinner (uncapped) which certainly did not have a cannon or anything else firing through it.

They do muddle up the E anf F in the discussion. Bader would have seen the report on Pingel's interrogation, he subsequently set a number of further questions to be asked about the F series, all survive in TNA). He was also very keen to fly the Bf 109 F which Pingel had delivered.

No wing guns there!

The bit about 'pulling the wings off' applied to the F series and was mentioned by Pingel. The famous German pilot referred to was, according to Pingel, Wilhelm Balthasar.

From memory Galland had two modified F series aircraft with cannon in the wings (not machine guns as described by our illustrious 'experts'). The picture you are referring to was taken on 5th December 1941, more than a year after the end of the BoB.

Cheers

Steve

 

[JAG88]

From memory Galland had two modified F series aircraft with cannon in the wings (not machine guns as described by our illustrious 'experts'). The picture you are referring to was taken on 5th December 1941, more than a year after the end of the BoB.

Cheers

Steve

One had MG FFs on the wings, the other replaced the cowl MGs with MG 131s that at least appears to be a much better installation than the one used on the later Gs, wonder why they didnt just kept it:

 

[tomo pauk]

One had MG FFs on the wings, the other replaced the cowl MGs with MG 131s that at least appears to be a much better installation than the one used on the later Gs, wonder why they didnt just kept it:
....

IIRC the ejected casings were hitting the fuselage and/or wings, thus the less tricky, but also less stremalined installation on the later Gs.
One reason more to persist with 3 MG FFM cannon set-up that never was

 

[JAG88]

IIRC the ejected casings were hitting the fuselage and/or wings, thus the less tricky, but also less stremalined installation on the later Gs.
One reason more to persist with 3 MG FFM cannon set-up that never was

Thx! I was wondering if the shells may be hitting the tail under certain conditions, been looking for an explanation for years.

 

[Koopernic]

Still pushing the Fw 187?

I notice that they "wasted" 76 engines on He 111s and Do 215s but of course the DO-215 with DB 601N engines could easily handle a Hurricane while a Bf 110 with the same engines could not?

I guess the British wasted hundreds (if not thousands) of Merlin XX engines on the Hurricane II?

I do like the "much higher altitude engines" bit as I believe the FTH for the 601N was a whopping 400 meters higher than the 601A-1. This is without the emergency over revving of the engine/s above 5,500 meters. This over revving would increase the supercharger impeller speed by around 2000rpm and so increase the height at which a give level of power would be obtained. Was the extra 2000rpm ( I can't be bothered to find the exact gear ratio of the supercharger with the fluid coupling locked up) of the impeller responsible for the extra 400 meters in altitude?

One does wonder how well a 109 with a 601A-1 engine running at 2600rpm at 6000 meters would compare to a 601N powered 109 also running at 2600rpm at 6000 meters?

I'll get back to pushing the Fw 187 latter.

The Basic data is this, all of this is short term "emergency" type data.
DB601A0 1025hp at 0m, 1025 at 3900m, 1000hp @ 4100m all at 2400rpm
DB601A1 1100hp at 0m, 1020 at 4500m both at 2400rpm *
DB601Aa 1175hp at 0m @ 2500 rpm, 1100hp at 3700m, 1050 at 4100m both @2400
DB601N0 1175hp @ 0m, 1175 @ 4900m both at 2600rpm

All engines could from late 1940 be over reved by 200rpm above the above Full Throttle Heights for 5 minutes which must be about 8%-10% more shaft power and probably 16% more jet thrust as both mass flow and exhaust velocity would also increase and compound the gain.

Hence these engines must have been getting 1275 or so hp by the end of 1940.

Unlike over boosting this does not increase power only below the existing full throttle heights.

Data on the 2800rpm DB601 would be interesting.

The Germans had closed the power gap with British 100 octane fuel but only in the dying days of the BoB.

I'd say our Do 215 with DB601N over reved to 2800 would get us our 316mph Do 215. The Luftwaffe used these for reconnaissance.

The Do 215, DB601Aa were a premium products for demanding export customers; Sweden, Switzerland, the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. The Soviet Union got two. That's how The 3rd Reich paid for its grain and oil, advanced technology. If Dornier and DB was trying to sell to a customer they'd offer their latest engine. The DB601Aa was better than the one the Luftwaffe specified.


*There is a note that 601Aa RPM can be increased 2400->2800rpm here
Kurfürst - DB 601, 603, 605 datasheets - DB 601 A-1

 

[swampyankee]

I have read many anecdotes by BoB pilots who claimed the Bf109 had a 20mm in the spinner during the battle, obviously an error, but just because they flew in the war doesn't mean they are nerdy plane fanatics like us, aircraft recognition was not exactly proficient all the way through the war.

Memory is also quite malleable, and the stories of people around, as well as being generally unreliable. It's not unlikely that these Battle of Britain pilots generalized through-hub guns on Bf109s encountered later in the war to the Bf109 models in use during the Battles for France and Britain.

 

[Koopernic]

Poor Douglas must be turning in his grave trying to shake that umlaut out of his name.

I have Cyrillic and German keyboard plugins on my iPad. Goes randomly bonkers because it doesn't know what dictionary to use. If Bader came back and had a look around I suspect umlauts might be the lessor of his disappointments.

 

[Juha2]

I'll get back to pushing the Fw 187 latter.

The Basic data is this, all of this is short term "emergency" type data.
DB601A0 1025hp at 0m, 1025 at 3900m, 1000hp @ 4100m all at 2400rpm
DB601A1 1100hp at 0m, 1020 at 4500m both at 2400rpm *
DB601Aa 1175hp at 0m @ 2500 rpm, 1100hp at 3700m, 1050 at 4100m both @2400
DB601N0 1175hp @ 0m, 1175 @ 4900m both at 2600rpm

All engines could from late 1940 be over reved by 200rpm above the above Full Throttle Heights for 5 minutes which must be about 8%-10% more shaft power and probably 16% more jet thrust as both mass flow and exhaust velocity would also increase and compound the gain.

Hence these engines must have been getting 1275 or so hp by the end of 1940.

Unlike over boosting this does not increase power only below the existing full throttle heights...

Hello Koopernic!
In fact only above 5 500m, well above the FTHs. So IMHO you are too optimistic in your power calculation.

 

[Shortround6]

All engines could from late 1940 be over reved by 200rpm above the above Full Throttle Heights for 5 minutes which must be about 8%-10% more shaft power and probably 16% more jet thrust as both mass flow and exhaust velocity would also increase and compound the gain.

Hence these engines must have been getting 1275 or so hp by the end of 1940.

Increasing from 2400rpm to 2600rpm is a 8.3 increase if everything else stayed the same. Unfortunately the internal friction of the engine goes up by about 17.4% (internal friction may have been under 100hp to begin with) and the power to drive the supercharger also goes up with the square of the speed. Helped in this case by the thinner air. but at 5,500 meters the air is 4% less dense than at 4900 meters so you need more of it (volume) to make the same power (and to have the same mass for your exhaust thrust.) but, yes, your exhaust gas velocity will be higher due the thinner air, less back pressure. HIgher you go the less mass for the exhaust thrust.

The Germans had closed the power gap with British 100 octane fuel but only in the dying days of the BoB.

At which point the British opened it right back up by introducing the Merlin XII in the Spitfire II (actual first flight was in 1939, as almost always, improvements were planned for in advance of actual need or response to an enemy development) and the introduction of the Merlin XX in the Hurricane II.

The Do 215, DB601Aa were a premium products for demanding export customers; Sweden, Switzerland, the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. The Soviet Union got two. That's how The 3rd Reich paid for its grain and oil, advanced technology. If Dornier and DB was trying to sell to a customer they'd offer their latest engine. The DB601Aa was better than the one the Luftwaffe specified.

More Hyperbole. The Kingdom of Yugoslavia got how many Do 215s???? how about ZERO. And was the promise of the Do 215 payment for raw materials or a bribe to get Yugoslavia to join the Axis.
Yugoslavia was a lot more in the desperate catagory than demanding, from WIki:
"The situation whereby the Kingdom of Yugoslavia had to acquire or manufacture aircraft from whatever source presented itself meant that by 1941, the VVKJ was rather uniquely equipped with 11 different types of operational aircraft, 14 different types of trainers and five types of auxiliary aircraft, with 22 different engine models, four different machine guns and two types of aircraft cannon"

Yugoslavia was already manufacturing DO17s in Jugoslavia so if they could get DB601 engines it would be a bonus.

Sweden had ordered 18 Do 215s, they got........ wait for it...............ZERO. Sweden also was buying up whatever it could get from whoever would sell to them, and actual deliveries were another story or series of stories. They took delivery of 72 Fiat CR 42 biplane fighters for example because nobody else would sell/deliver aircraft to them. They had ordered 150 Seversky fighters (and 20 two seaters) but after the first 60 were delivered the US embargoed the rest. 40 of them wound up in the Philippines. So was Sweden demanding or desperate?

As far as Switzerland goes, any record of at all of Switzerland actually purchasing an Do 215, or planning to purchase?
They did operate a single Do 17Z which was interned after landing at Basal airport in April of 1940.

I am not at all sure the 601Aa was "better" than the 601A-1. lots of companies offered different models of engines with slightly different supercharger gear ratios or slightly different superchargers to suit the engine for specific applications. ANY engine with a lower than normal FTH usually had a higher take-off power or higher power at an intermediate altitude. Was the higher power of the 601Aa at low altitudes "bought" at the price of lower power at high altitude compared to the 601A-1 ?

 

[tomo pauk]

Was the higher power of the 601Aa at low altitudes "bought" at the price of lower power at high altitude compared to the 601A-1 ?

It was.

 

[parsifal]

I like the claim the germans had to put premium technologies into its exports to pay for its grain imports. German difficulties with exports arose far more from its decision to artificially devalue its currency to massively and unsustainably favour its import costs, but this in turn made its exports of manufactured goods exceedingly expensive.

The Germany within the occupied territories and even the territories of their allies, often engaged in outright looting of resources. There were reasons why the germans within Romania were as hated as the Russians. This was one of the main reasons why. Finland absolutely refused to allow significant numbers of German troops into populated areas of the country, because they feared the germans would cut loose and steal everything (there were other issues as well, but this was one of them).

Germany began its thieving practices from other countries from day 1 of the war. With the outbreak of the war, many ships carrying cargoes to the Reich were seized, the cargoes confiscated and ships commandeered by the Germans. More than 40 vessels were rounded up in this way. It mattered not if those ships were neutral, friendly or otherwise acting lawfully. The Germans acted abominably towards nations otherwise keen to trade with them. Small wonder that nearly 80% of Europe's merchant fleets within a year were working for the British or had been moved to areas outside Europe.

The British were no saints either. Ships from the beginning of the war were routinely rounded up and sent to the customs stations like the one at Kirkwall, where their cargo manifests and crew/passenger nationalities were checked. Cargoes and nationals for the allies were immediately released, cargoes for neutrals might be subject to a control order, particularly for strategic cargoes like fuel. Just enough to meet the needs of that neutral, not enough to allow contraband to find its way to Germany. Ships or nationals of enemy origin were immediately seized and detained.

The difference between the british practices and the german is an equity question. The British were acting within the accepted laws on the carriage of contraband, the rights of a belligerent to stop and search, and if necessary apprehend any vessel entering the declared war zones. The Germans did not. For them, any ship, friendly, neutral or enemy was fair game. Later on the high seas they adopted a policy of shoot on sight, no stop and search