Improved Skua for FAA?

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And even if FAA was ordering its own high performance fighters, would RAF have appropriate them ahead of BoB, leaving RN with nothing.

I doubt that, why would they? The issue with not letting the FAA get Spitfires was production, rather than in service aircraft. The admirals reasoned that if another manufacturer, i.e. Fairey built them, then RAF number isn't compromised. By August and September 1940 fighter production was matching pre BoB numbers of fighters and by the end of October the RAF had more fighters in service than what it began the BoB with, so it compensated for its losses and added to its overall number. This meant the calls for stop-gap fighters went unanswered simply because they weren't needed, so if the FAA had its own single seaters, I'm pretty sure they'd probably assist the RAF and base them at RAF airfields, as the FAA did with its torpedo bomber units. The Swordfish that attacked the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau during the Channel Dash were temporarily shifted to RAF Manston.

Not sure if a twin TSR/DB is a better solution or not to the Skua.

Probably not, it depends on whose building it. The Barracuda was a dog's breakfast aerodynamically and that was the result of combining the two requirements. As mentioned, dive bombers don't need to be big. Torpedo bombers do. The bigger the dive bomber the greater the amount of structural strengthening, which adds weight and complexity in undercarriage and dive brake design etc, which requires more power to get the heavier frame off the carrier deck, so a bigger, thirstier engine, which reduces fuel consumption, thus reducing usable range etc, etc... An extreme example is the He 177 as a dive bomber and the issues that had.

Let's put it this way, in my opinion, the Skua is not worth modifying and history proves me right on this, it was retired after only a few years in service and it wasn't modified beyond the basic design in multiple variants. The alternative is to create something else within an appropriate time period.
 
It doesn't really matter if the French or the Italians or whoever was using HS license props or not in combat planes. There were no "bonus" points for using a home designed propeller.
What matters was aircraft performance, aircraft reliability, and the odds of a crew of a multi engine aircraft making it home with one engine (and later with two) not operating.

It kinda does when assessing the situation in context. Your criticism was that Britain lagged behind in prop use. Behind whom, exactly? It didn't and evidence from what other countries were doing provides necessary context.

Great post, by the way.
 
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Let's put it this way, in my opinion, the Skua is not worth modifying and history proves me right on this, it was retired after only a few years in service and it wasn't modified beyond the basic design in multiple variants. The alternative is to create something else within an appropriate time period.
Actually, I would put the lack of Skua development down to the the fact the Air Ministry's penchant for issuing specifications instead trusting manufacturers to develop & improve their existing designs. It was a pre-war practice that thankfully was reduced (but never eliminated) during the war.
 
Actually, I would put the lack of Skua development down to the the fact the Air Ministry's penchant for issuing specifications instead trusting manufacturers to develop & improve their existing designs. It was a pre-war practice that thankfully was reduced (but never eliminated) during the war.
I would put the lack of development of the Skua down to lack of improved engine availability/foresight to implement said improvement

Mitchell and team's initial design the Spitfire required a few blocks of lead on the engine bearers as they surmised adding a constant speed propeller was in the future. They also designed it so you could add a couple blocks of lead in the tail to counter balance a Griffon (or 2 stage Merlin). The Blackburn team didn't have that kind of fore thought.​
And there is no 1,200hp engine waiting anyways: Hercules is too heavy; Taurus was having troublesome development path and Perseus wasn't developed that far (the post war 1/2 Centaurus not withstanding)​

p.s. That vertical windscreen is a function of paying too much attention to customer desires. Yes, it allowed a terrific view of the deck while landing, but it compromises performance at top end too much.
 
I would put the lack of development of the Skua down to lack of improved engine availability/foresight to implement said improvement

Mitchell and team's initial design the Spitfire required a few blocks of lead on the engine bearers as they surmised adding a constant speed propeller was in the future. They also designed it so you could add a couple blocks of lead in the tail to counter balance a Griffon (or 2 stage Merlin). The Blackburn team didn't have that kind of fore thought.​
And there is no 1,200hp engine waiting anyways: Hercules is too heavy; Taurus was having troublesome development path and Perseus wasn't developed that far (the post war 1/2 Centaurus not withstanding)​

p.s. That vertical windscreen is a function of paying too much attention to customer desires. Yes, it allowed a terrific view of the deck while landing, but it compromises performance at top end too much.
I always wondered about that windscreen. I chalked it up to one pint too many. Very informative post Don.
 
Generally, you don't "pay attention" to customers specs. You meet them or you don't and, if you don't, you generally don't sell the airplane. Sometimes not even if you DO meets specs and are the best-performing entrant.

Look what happened to the Northrop YF-23. It met the stealth spec and performed better than the YF-22 Raptor. But politics meant the F-22 "checked more boxes" for the people who BUY the airplanes, not the people who operate the airplanes.
 
It kinda does when assessing the situation in context. Your criticism was that Britain lagged behind in prop use. Behind whom, exactly? It didn't and evidence from what other countries were doing provides necessary context.

Great post, by the way.
The Italians were using going by the 1938 Jane's
Breda 64 controllable pitch
Breda 65 not stated
Breda 82 2 engine bomber, not stated but photo seems to show constant speed. (Counter weights and cylinder out the front)
Breda 88 no details and no photo
Cant 501 seaplane, no details, photo has spinner over the prop
Cant 506 seaplane. photo shows adjustable/controllable props (counter weights and cylinder)
Cant 509 photo is at a distance and has small spinners.
Caproni Ca 124 photo is at a distance. Prop looks like it had some sort of adjustment with bare hub
Caproni Ca 134 prop has spinner but the base of the blades look like a fixed pitch (or large cuff)
Caproni Ca 135 liquid cooled engines, photo has spinners. descriptions says controllable pitch props.
Fiat Cr 32 fixed pitch
Fiat G. 50 photos show hydraulic cylinder, description says constant speed.
Fiat B. R. 20 description says constant speed props. Photos are consistent but are at a distance.
Fiat G. 18V transport. description says constant speed props. Photos are consistent but are at a distance.
Macchi M.C. 77 pusher airscrew, photo is from the front, appears to have at least clamps on the prop blade (ground adjustable)
Macchi C. 94. Adjustable pitch airscrews, photo at a distance with trees behind, could be ground adjustable or controllable?
Macchi C.99 controllable pitch airscrews.
Macchi C.100 controllable pitch airscrews.
Macchi C. 200 No details released but photo shows at least a controllable pitch prop (counterweights and cylinder out the front of the hub)
Meridionali Ro 37 bis, no details but photo appears to be ground adjustable.
Meridionali Ro 43, no details but photo appears to be ground adjustable.
Meridionali Ro 51. controllable pitch propeller.
Piaggio P-32, controllable pitch propellers.
Reggiane Ca 405 controllable pitch propellers. photo from rear of plane, no help.
Savoia-Marchetti SM 75. either constant speed electrical propellers or two-position hydraulically controlled propellers
Savoia-Marchetti SM 79 two-position Savoia-Marchetti variable pitch propellers.
Savoia-Marchetti SM 83 either Savoia-Marchetti or Fiat (Hamilton Standard) two position controllable pitch airscrews.

This is for the high powered aircraft, not counting trainers and small civil aircraft.

France is the only other country to look at using the 1938 Janes as the information from Japan is sketchy, 8 pages compared to 13 pages for the Netherlands.
Russia has 7 pages.

I don't know the month of publication of 1938 year book, pages say information was correct as of Sept 30th 1938.
 
Generally, you don't "pay attention" to customers specs. You meet them or you don't and, if you don't, you generally don't sell the airplane. Sometimes not even if you DO meets specs and are the best-performing entrant.
Sometimes (Bf.110), you largely ignore the customer spec, come up with something the customer (RLM) decides they have to have. And they rewrite the specification around what you're selling.

FAA might have taken 25 mph better top speed for a more aerodynamic windscreen.
 
And there is no 1,200hp engine waiting anyways: Hercules is too heavy; Taurus was having troublesome development path and Perseus wasn't developed that far (the post war 1/2 Centaurus not withstanding)
R-1820 1000HP Dry weight: 1,184 lb (537 kg) 29L
R-1830 1200HP Dry weight: 1,250 lb (570 kg) 29L
Perseus 900HP Dry weight: 1,025 lb (465 kg) 25L
Taurus 1050HP Dry weight: 1,301 lb (590 kg) 25L

The Skua had a lengthened nose to account for CoG issues, so there was about 18" or so to slide a heavier motor back to maintain aircraft CoG balance.
Putting a 38L Hercules motor in is not a serious proposition.
The Taurus had a higher specific weight than the American motors, the 3rd best choice.

The Martlet I's had the R-1820 (rated at 1200hp), heck, they were even modified at Blackburn from French to British specification. I am surprised that engineers at Blackburn didn't 'borrow' a motor to rig up onto a Skua, just as the Mustang and Rolls Royce Merlin were mashed up. Probably at that time, they were tied up with the Botha or some other inconsequential aircraft.
Martlet II's were R-1830.

So I disagree about the motor situation. An up-motored Skua would have been close enough to a Fulmar in performance, would attain motor commonality with the Martlet, and would of released Fairey to other manufacturing tasks (Seafires, etc).
There was too much nepotism going into 1940 with the Air Ministry - design a plane, build 100 of this 100 of that, move onto the next design....
skuaengine1.jpg
 
And there is no 1,200hp engine waiting anyways: Hercules is too heavy; Taurus was having troublesome development path and Perseus wasn't developed that far (the post war 1/2 Centaurus not withstanding)
R-1820 1000HP Dry weight: 1,184 lb (537 kg) 29L
R-1830 1200HP Dry weight: 1,250 lb (570 kg) 29L
Perseus 900HP Dry weight: 1,025 lb (465 kg) 25L
Taurus 1050HP Dry weight: 1,301 lb (590 kg) 25L
The Wiki numbers are bogus.

The R-1820 is close, the 1000hp engine in the SBD went went 1255lbs Had a two speed blower
The R-1820 that made 1200hp was just about 1300lbs. had a two speed blower.
R-1830 went over 1400lbs for a 1200hp version even with a single speed blower. The 1250lb version was good for about 950hp.
Perseus that made 905hp at 6,500ft went over 1100lbs
Taurus is about right

Pegasus XVIII 1135lbs? using either 87 octane or 100 octane you got.
take-off........................965hp/87....................1050hp/100
low gear................1000hp/87/3000ft............1065/100/1250ft
High gear..............885hp/87/15,500ft.......... 965hp/100/13,000ft

You could get single speed Pegasus engines if you don't need the altitude range.

The two speed Pegasus is the best bet for improved Skua.
Assuming you could have pried Pegasus engines out of the hands of Bomber Command in 1939-40-41, Primary engine for Wellingtons and Hampdens.
 
The two speed Pegasus is the best bet for improved Skua.
Assuming you could have pried Pegasus engines out of the hands of Bomber Command in 1939-40-41, Primary engine for Wellingtons and Hampdens.

An up-motored Skua would have been close enough to a Fulmar in performance, would attain motor commonality with the Martlet, and would of released Fairey to other manufacturing tasks (Seafires, etc).

The improvement between an 890hp Perseus and a 1,050hp Pegasus isn't going to be very much: <20 mph. I'm aware it might be better at 13k', but how often is Skua operating there? And would RN be getting 100 octane in any quantity in '39-'41?
The Skua needs well over 1,300hp to match Fulmar in performance (probably over 2k hp).​

FAA was prying Pegasus engines off BC for Swordfish and Walrus planes, so another 100 out of >30k should have been possible.

On other hand, h3ll would freeze over before Fairey would have manufactured Seafires.
 
Actually, I would put the lack of Skua development down to the the fact the Air Ministry's penchant for issuing specifications instead trusting manufacturers to develop & improve their existing designs.

Nice idea, but Blackburn wanted to remain in the game, so putting that onto Blackburn isn't gonna fly. As Greg mentioned, if you want your aeroplane built, you do what the customer asks for. Doing what the Air Ministry wanted made sense; in 1934 when the specification was released, few had much idea of how an all metal monoplane dive bomber should perform, but if the Air Ministry is to be blamed it was due to the dual specification.

Look, you can hypothesise all you like about why the Skua wasn't advanced on, but at a meeting held on 22 October 1937, members of the Admiralty and Air Ministry all agreed that "the Skua and Roc will be obsolescent by 1939". The Skua was beyond redemption, which leads nicely to my next point...

So I disagree about the motor situation. An up-motored Skua would have been close enough to a Fulmar in performance, would attain motor commonality with the Martlet, and would of released Fairey to other manufacturing tasks (Seafires, etc).

Yeah, nah, just putting an up-engined motor isn't going to give the Skua even Fulmar performance. I think you're clutching at straws. Induced drag doesn't just go away with more power, it increases with speed. The Skua is big and although similar in dimension to the Fulmar, the latter's frontal area is arguably more streamlined. Again the Fulmar is a stop gap and was put into motion pretty quickly and the fact it entered service so soon (by British standards) was because of the fact it was based on the Fairey P.4/34. Nevertheless, to get Fairey building Sea Spitfires, something has to give. I'd stop the Barracuda!
 
I guess it depends on what the goal is for the Skua.

If you want a better dive bomber, (bigger bomb/more range) off the small British flight decks then using a Pegasus will give you a useful improvement.

If you want a radial engine Fulmar you better start figuring out how to put rockets on the poor Skua. Large rockets.

A P-36 with a R-1830 14 cylinder radial engine had 22 % more drag than an early P-40. The British radial installations were not as good as the P-36 installation.
A 1300hp Hercules isn't going to come close to a Fulmar with a Merlin VIII. Once the Fulmar gets the Merlin 30 engine you are are going to need a 1600-1700hp Hercules.

The Skua may have been beyond redemption for other reasons, flying characteristics? I don't know.

The "dual" use excuse seems a bit lame, At worst, absolute worst, the Skua was carrying 178lbs more guns and ammo than a "bomber" carrying a single .303 gun and 500rounds of ammo. Yanking those 178lbs out of a 8230lb airplanes (or trading it for fuel or ???) isn't going to change the flight performance very much for other roles.

Now if you want a "fighter" but you want to to keep the guy in the back (with the homing beacon gear) and you want to carry double the ammo the Hurricane carries you are not going to come close to Hurricane performance, You might do a bit better than the Defiant though? And if you keep the radial engine???? the goal for the fighter is to provide carrier or fleet protection, not provide target practice for the enemy.
 
If you want a better dive bomber, (bigger bomb/more range) off the small British flight decks then using a Pegasus will give you a useful improvement.

Make it smaller. It doesn't need a 46 foot wingspan. In fact it might have been a better fighter if it was smaller. The Dauntless had a 41 ft 6 in span. Interestingly though, although dimensionally the SBD was smaller than the Skua, it had a bigger wing area.

The "dual" use excuse seems a bit lame,

It's a pretty convincing reason why its performance was so poor as a fighter.

The Skua may have been beyond redemption for other reasons, flying characteristics?

Not really, it's handling was deemed acceptable for service, whatever that especially omits to tell us. It had a few stability issues, the prototype wasn't very stable below 140 kts and tended to nose up in the stall and although the stall was not vicious, if uncorrected it dropped a wing and entered a spin. If that happened you weren't getting out of that spin except in a body bag. The stall issues were by and large cured with modifications from the second example built. To improve the stall characteristics, it had lengthened wingtips that canted upwards as well as other modifications here and there, which included lengthening the nose over the prototype. Aerobatics were prohibited below 5,000 ft and spinning was prohibited.

On the plus side, visibility in particular was praised during testing. In the dive it was stable and its maximum speed reached was only 280 kts. Eric Brown recorded that it matched the Stuka and Dauntless in stability in the dive, so it got the dive bomber bit right. The type had a very low, slow landing speed, despite this, Brown stated that it didn't have very good landing characteristics. Overall, its performance was criticised from the moment it entered service and the fact it couldn't carry a bigger bomb than 500 lbs was criticised once the bang bang started. Also, not living up to expectations as a fighter was never gonna help it, go figure, so bearing all this in mind it's not surprising it didn't last long in service.

Information from Blackburn Skua and Roc by Matthew Willis and Wings of the Navy by Eric 'Winkle' Brown.
 
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Sometimes (Bf.110), you largely ignore the customer spec, come up with something the customer (RLM) decides they have to have. And they rewrite the specification around what you're selling.

FAA might have taken 25 mph better top speed for a more aerodynamic windscreen.
Or, like in the case of the Swordfish, you build as a private venture and then try to sell it.
 
Blackburn Shark can be said to have been competitive with the Swordfish. If they had been able to use the Pegasus engine (or some other reliable engine of equivalent performance) on the original prototypes and early production airframes, the Swordfish might have had to share the limelight with the Shark.
 
Post-war Buccaneer aside, did Blackburn ever make a competitive aircraft? They must have had some friends in government procurement.

Just look at this POS for example, the ridiculously named Blackburn Blackburn.

View attachment 671066
D H Clarke author of "What Were They Like to Fly" flew a large number of different aircraft. I have a number of his articles in RAF Flying Review from the late 50's early 60's. He thought the Blackburn Shark was a better aircraft than the Swordfish. He did hate the Botha. He actually tried to use a Botha to drop a mine off the coast of France which was not a good idea. He flew a Roc in air-to-air combat with a Heinkel He 59 which ended in a draw.
He listed the Skua as one of his six favorite aircraft to fly. Fury (biplane), Gauntlet (if I recall correctly), Harvard, Spitfire (of course), Macchi 200.
He flew Skua at night during the Dunkirk evacuation towing flares to illuminate any E boats attempting a nighttime attack.
Overall, I would say the Blackburn wasn't the A team but did manage to produce some serviceable designs, however the misses outnumbered the hits. I would not have wanted to be a Blackburn test pilot.
 
He listed the Skua as one of his six favorite aircraft to fly.
I do think the Skua had potential. The Taranto Raid would have done nicely with a squadron of Skuas dropping incendiary bombs, for example. And two or three squadrons at Ceylon could have wrecked havoc on Nagumo's force in April 1941 - of course benefiting by Nagumo's lack of CAP, preparedness and situational awareness. Imagine, swapping out the Bristol Blenheims that approached undetected from 11,000 feet from which level they dropped their bombs and missed, with Skuas diving from 11,000 feet onto Nagumo's decks.
 
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I do think the Skua had potential. The Taranto Raid would have done nicely with a squadron of Skuas dropping incendiary bombs, for example. And two or three squadrons at Ceylon could have wrecked havoc on Nagumo's force in April 1941 - of course benefiting by Nagumo's lack of CAP or situational awareness.
And that is part of the problem with Skua in real life.

Bomb selection on carriers was limited. There was only so much magazine space.

The Skua was a bit too closely tailored to the 500lb SAP bomb.

blackburn_b_24_skua-68964.jpg


The 500lb SAP may have been just the ticket for the Graf Spee and her sisters, it was overkill on the 6-7000 ton light cruisers and destroyers and merchant ships.
It may have been a bit on the small side for the Scharnhorst and sister.
I am talking about armor penetration. Too much penetration can (but not always) mean the bomb exiting the bottom/side of the ship and exploding outside. Damaging but not the damage of a bomb going off inside the ship. Too little penetration can mean the bomb breaking up impact, bouncing off the armored surface or otherwise exploding in a less than ideal position.
Even naval guns are supplied with 2-3 kinds of shells to suit them to the target.

The Skua may have been a very good basis for a dive bomber or even scout-dive bomber but that is not what they wanted. Since it couldn't perform the fighter function that overlooked what they had and went shopping for new toys.
With a Pegasus and upgraded to carry a 1000lb bomb (or several different 500-1000lb bombs) the Skua may have proved useful until 1942-43.

It doesn't seem like the Skua was fundamentally flawed for the roles of scout/recon and dive bomber/strike aircraft. The RN seemed to want a plane with different roles/missions with their limited deck parks.
 

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