- Thread starter
- #121
Admiral Beez
Major
The Swordfish took care of them. My idea was if Skuas are available we can hit additional targets.
Improved Skua for FAA?
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Thumpalumpacus
Major
You're gonna need another carrier, then.
Shortround6
Major General
Setting fire to fuel oil isn't as easy as some people think.
Bunker C is closer to tar than gasoline. Ships use steam lines in the fuel tanks just to get it flow.
Setting fire to a tank farm with just a few hits is like hitting the lottery.
Bunker C is closer to tar than gasoline. Ships use steam lines in the fuel tanks just to get it flow.
Setting fire to a tank farm with just a few hits is like hitting the lottery.
- Thread starter
- #124
Admiral Beez
Major
Perhaps, but Illustrious launched 21 Swordfish. I assume that's her total complement. The Fulmar was introduced in May 1940, so I'm not sure how many were on Illustrious that day in Nov 1940.
- Thread starter
- #125
Admiral Beez
Major
How about at Ceylon in place or along with the undetected Blenheim raid? SAP should penetrate IJN carrier decks.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
I thought we were talking about Skuas and not Fulmars. And yes, so far as I know the Illustrious launched only Swordfish for that raid. With only one carrier, you're going to bite into an already very limited torpedo attack against the battleships if you decide to replace some Swordfish with Skuas.
If you've got a second carrier with Skuas, perhaps attacking the tank farms could work. Or if you'd prefer, diverting some Faireys from attacking the BBs to attacking the tank farms, at the risk of making both strikes too light to matter.
- Thread starter
- #127
Admiral Beez
Major
We are. If Illustrious has 21 Swordfish aboard and we want to add Skuas without adding another carrier, then we need to clear the hangar of any other aircraft, which by Nov 1940 must have been Fulmars. That's why I mention them, in a failed attempt to get ahead of contrarianism.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Oh, now I get what you're saying. According to Armoured Aircraft Carriers, the loadout for the Illustrious was as follows:
HMS Illustrious (Flag Rear Admiral Lyster)
806 Squadron: 15 Fulmar MkI
815 Squadron: 9 Swordfish
819 Squadron: 9 Swordfish
813 Squadron*: 4 Swordfish, 2 Sea Gladiator
824 Squadron*: 2 Swordfish
* Detached from HMS Eagle
Armoured Aircraft Carriers
At Taranto, HMS Illustrious changed the balance of the war and cemented the aircraft carrier at the core of the battlefleet.
www.armouredcarriers.com
The Fulmar was a bit larger than the Skua, so perhaps a couple more Blackburns could be crammed in, at the expense of better daytime air-cover from the Faireys?
- Thread starter
- #130
Admiral Beez
Major
A full 36 crate CAG of twenty-one Swordfish and fifteen Skuas would make for a solid maritime strike package… provided the target is not defended by fighter aircraft and the Skuas aren't expected to defend Illustrious from anything faster than 200 mph. Forget about intercepting a 290 mph SM.79 Sparviero or even a 235 mph B5N.
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Shortround6
Major General
The Skua, as built, carried a single bomb. Historically it was 500lb SAP with 90lbs of HE.
In the what if maybe we can use the 500lb GP bomb with 144lbs of HE.
Now how far can we push the what if?
The British bring the 1000lb GP bomb to the party rather late. They are ordering the production versions in Dec of 1939 and only about 160 are dropped in 1940 (11,000 had been ordered.) It does hold 357lbs of 60/40 Amatol/TNT.
The higher capacity MC bombs don't show up until 1942.
If you want to try for the oil tanks a Swordfish will hold six 250lbs bombs in the under wing racks. Range may be a bit shorter than the torpedo planes due to drag?
Each 250lb GP bomb will hold 67-68lbs of HE and even just 4 planes could put 2 dozen bombs into the tank farm.
I don't believe the Japanese used armored flight decks. A standard 500lb GP bomb should penetrate the flight deck.
The 500lb SAP might be able to penetrate the hanger deck.
One or two 500lb GP bombs might very well not sink a Japanese carrier (depends on damage control) but a pair of 500lb GP bombs in the hanger is going to need dockyard repairs.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
That would work for the Taranto raid at night too, using the Skuas to bomb the tank-farms as you mentioned above -- but you'd damned well better be on full retraction before the RA can put bombers in the air in the morning.
Reluctant Poster
Tech Sergeant
- 1,619
- Dec 6, 2006
The only Japanese carrier with an amoured flight deck was the Taiho. No Japanese fleet carrier was sunk by bombs not even the grievously damaged carriers at Midway which were still afloat and were scuttled by Japanese torpedoes. And contrary to popular opinion Japanese warships were tough, ask any USN cruiser captain. Any carrier caught with fueled up and bombed up aircraft on board was in deep trouble.
Reluctant Poster
Tech Sergeant
- 1,619
- Dec 6, 2006
How are the swordfish delivering the bombs and how are they aiming them. Bombing a night with real bombsights wasn't easy. Bombing by sighting over the nose would be even more inaccurate. Also a 250 lb bomb isn't going to cause any damage with a near miss
- Thread starter
- #135
Admiral Beez
Major
The big flaw in the Skua is a lack of top speed. This is what we need to address, either with more horsepower, less weight or less drag. How did the Air Ministry of 1938 think that a 225 mph Skua was capable of serving as a fleet defence fighter?
don4331
Senior Airman
Bf 109 specification was for a monoplane fighter of high maneuverability and greatest speed possible, with good diving and spinning performance. Messerschmitt aircraft pretty much meeting that. Now originally, Messerschmitt wasn't invited to bid due to issues with his earlier M-20 aircraft but that is different issue.
Bf110 was for a monoplane kampfzerstorer with 2-7.9mm &2-20mm forward guns, internal bombay for 2-250kg bombs and transverse-able armament (aka turret) for side and rear defense. The closest to meeting the spec initially was the Fw.57. The Bf.110 skipped the internal bombay and the mg17 for the rear gunner wasn't really what RLM was thinking of. Noting Messerschmitt built the Bf.162 to carry bombs to compliment the Bf.110 in attempt to completely meet the requirement. But other than a couple prototypes it went nowhere.
Messerschmitt finally met the specification with the Bf.210 but we know the saga of that plane.
don4331
Senior Airman
Admiral Beez;
You are aware Illustrious could only stage 12 Swordfish for the 1st 'strike' and the remaining 9 then had to be make ready and launch on the Taranto Raid? (Other's have pointed out it was actually more than her regular 'full' compliment, and ~10% wind up being un-serviceable).
So if you attempting to add Skua's to the raid you are adding at least a 3rd staging (and maybe a 4th). Which is going to mean your carrier needs to get much closer, and will not be able to retreat until much later.
In '38, the RN knew no fighter could provide fleet defense. By the time you saw the enemy bombers with eyeball mk. 1, you only had time to batten down the hatches, and man the AAA guns. That's the primary justification for the ABH carrier. The fleet fighter was to shoot down the MAP seaplane providing enemy with your location/float planes calling out the fall from enemy battleships shooting your BB/calling the shot for your battleships as they destroyed the enemy fleet.
As EwenS chastised me, its really '41 before a CV can launch fighters effectively in fleet defense. Now, the Admiralty had read the tea leaves and wanted a fighter in place by that time but Fulmar really wasn't it.
Skuas and Swordfish are a few inches short of 36ft long so are interchangeable in terms of hangar deck space. Illustrious was designed around 6 Skua and 30 Swordfish in her 456 ft long hangar. With 3 aircraft abreast, which is all that will fit, that is 12 rows. (You need to allow working room around each aircraft. In WW2 the RN worked to a minimum of 1.5-2ft).Oh, now I get what you're saying. According to Armoured Aircraft Carriers, the loadout for the Illustrious was as follows:
HMS Illustrious (Flag Rear Admiral Lyster)
806 Squadron: 15 Fulmar MkI
815 Squadron: 9 Swordfish
819 Squadron: 9 Swordfish
813 Squadron*: 4 Swordfish, 2 Sea Gladiator
824 Squadron*: 2 Swordfish
* Detached from HMS Eagle
Armoured Aircraft Carriers
At Taranto, HMS Illustrious changed the balance of the war and cemented the aircraft carrier at the core of the battlefleet.
The Fulmar was a bit larger than the Skua, so perhaps a couple more Blackburns could be crammed in, at the expense of better daytime air-cover from the Faireys?
The successor aircraft, Albacore & Fulmar, are around 40ft 2in long. So hangar capacity with these types drops to 33. Usually 15 Fulmar & 18 Albacore in 1940/41.
With 15 Fulmars aboard the Swordfish capacity is the same as it would be for Albacores -18.
At Taranto Illustrious operated a deck park for the extra aircraft she had aboard. The two non-folding Sea Gladiators were kept tucked out of the way, starboard side immediately aft of S4 Pom-Pom. The long round downs fitted to the Illustrious class as designed limited the numbers of aircraft that could be ranged at any one time for free take offs. That was especially so at Taranto where the Swordfish were very heavy all with fitted with overload fuel tanks in the Observer's cockpit (no TAGs on that mission).
While 10 of the Swordfish were equipped with bombs the plan called for them to be delivered in a shallow dive as the aircraft dropped from their approach altitude of c8000ft to about 500-1500ft. They had great difficulty picking out their principal targets (the heavy cruisers) in the dark even with the light from the flares, so most dropped their bombs on other targets instead.
The only reference I can think of reading of about night time dive bombing in WW2 was when the Barracuda crews in 11ACS in mid-1945 were asked to experiment with it. The crews were none to happy at the prospect and it didn't get very far. Then the war ended so they never had to try it out on operations.
If you want full on dive bombing at Taranto in 1940 then i think it becomes a day mission and you need to accept far higher losses from flak & fighters.
Reluctant Poster
Tech Sergeant
- 1,619
- Dec 6, 2006
I must confess I am wrong. Actually they did bomb the oil tanks. The 4 flare droppers bombed them on the way out. Since they carried flares they only could carry 4 x 250 lb bombs for a total of 16. It seems they did damage although I have seen differing opinions on how much damage. The bombers tasked to attack warships did score hits although some of the bombs failed to explode, an all too common occurrence in WWII. The Swordfish was able to bomb with some accuracy at night.
Geoffrey Sinclair
Staff Sergeant
- 904
- Sep 30, 2021
Details from Taranto by Don Newton and A. Cecil Hampshire, first published in 1959.
Illustrious lost 3 Swordfish on patrol, one each on the 9th, 10th and 11th all probably due to contaminated fuel, reducing the attack to 21 aircraft, with one of these completing repairs from a heavy landing about an hour before take off.
First wave take off 20.35, 12 aircraft, 6 with torpedoes, 4 to bomb ships in the inner harbour, 2 to release flares then bomb the oil storage tanks.
Second wave take off 21.20, 9 aircraft, 5 with torpedoes, 2 to bomb ships in the inner harbour, 2 to release flares then bomb the oil storage tanks.
Bombers each had 6x250 pound SAP bombs, flare droppers each had 4x250 pound SAP bombs and 16 flares. The torpedo droppers also had a flare each but did not use them. Torpedoes armed with magnetic and contact pistols.
Thanks to recent storms and high winds the balloon barrage was only 27 strong, after around 60 recent losses.
The patrolling Sunderland was detected by sound after 8 PM and the alarm sounded, a little later one of the AA batteries engaged the aircraft which seemed to drive it away, the alert was cancelled, but reinstated around 9 PM after more engine noises were detected, this stayed in place, at 10.25 more engine noises were heard, at 10.50 air raid sirens were sounded, the approaching Swordfish saw the AA barrage begin at 10.52. One of the torpedo carriers had lost touch with the formation and proceeded alone, arriving "30 minutes" earlier than the rest of the aircraft before rejoining. A still working lighthouse enabled confirmation of where the aircraft were. The first attack lasted 23 minutes.
Second wave had 2 aircraft collide in a taxi accident, one was able to launch after a short delay, the other needed repair and launched 24 minutes later.
Bombs were dropped from between low level and 1,500 feet. 6 dropped near the oil depot, all exploded, supply pipe fractured. Bombs hit Trento and Libeccio, the latter did not explode. Near misses or hits seem to have opened up the fuel tanks of two heavy cruisers. Some bombs hit houses in Taranto.
Deteriorating weather meant the idea for a strike the next night was abandoned.
The Moon was half way between first quarter and full, at London rising 14.58 on the 11th, setting 04.14 on the 12th.
Illustrious lost 3 Swordfish on patrol, one each on the 9th, 10th and 11th all probably due to contaminated fuel, reducing the attack to 21 aircraft, with one of these completing repairs from a heavy landing about an hour before take off.
First wave take off 20.35, 12 aircraft, 6 with torpedoes, 4 to bomb ships in the inner harbour, 2 to release flares then bomb the oil storage tanks.
Second wave take off 21.20, 9 aircraft, 5 with torpedoes, 2 to bomb ships in the inner harbour, 2 to release flares then bomb the oil storage tanks.
Bombers each had 6x250 pound SAP bombs, flare droppers each had 4x250 pound SAP bombs and 16 flares. The torpedo droppers also had a flare each but did not use them. Torpedoes armed with magnetic and contact pistols.
Thanks to recent storms and high winds the balloon barrage was only 27 strong, after around 60 recent losses.
The patrolling Sunderland was detected by sound after 8 PM and the alarm sounded, a little later one of the AA batteries engaged the aircraft which seemed to drive it away, the alert was cancelled, but reinstated around 9 PM after more engine noises were detected, this stayed in place, at 10.25 more engine noises were heard, at 10.50 air raid sirens were sounded, the approaching Swordfish saw the AA barrage begin at 10.52. One of the torpedo carriers had lost touch with the formation and proceeded alone, arriving "30 minutes" earlier than the rest of the aircraft before rejoining. A still working lighthouse enabled confirmation of where the aircraft were. The first attack lasted 23 minutes.
Second wave had 2 aircraft collide in a taxi accident, one was able to launch after a short delay, the other needed repair and launched 24 minutes later.
Bombs were dropped from between low level and 1,500 feet. 6 dropped near the oil depot, all exploded, supply pipe fractured. Bombs hit Trento and Libeccio, the latter did not explode. Near misses or hits seem to have opened up the fuel tanks of two heavy cruisers. Some bombs hit houses in Taranto.
Deteriorating weather meant the idea for a strike the next night was abandoned.
The Moon was half way between first quarter and full, at London rising 14.58 on the 11th, setting 04.14 on the 12th.
