improving the 109??

[GrauGeist]

I do believe Greg nailed it - Neocon or his other brother has returned to grace this forum with a wagonload of bovine fecal matter.

Letting him stir you up is a sad thing.

I wouldn't say he's stirring anyone up, but look at the mountain of good (and factual) information he's being buried with!

Makes for an informative read for those who are looking for information and it also provides a laugh when you read "shooter's" fantasy posts.

 

[stona]

I think this may have been covered in this forum before, but since I can't find my posts I will reiterate here.
Fitting a larger tail, making minor alterations to the wing, changing engines and associated systems, altering the canopy design/framing were things that were done to the Bf 109 relatively easily and with no major impediment to production. It was poor management that led to the large variety of sub types being built at the various plants and another failure of management that this was never really fixed. Being bombed into next week probably didn't help
Changing the fuselage structure, as in for example manufacturing a 'low back' version would be something quite different. The structure of the Bf 109 fuselage comprised sections with formed edges, effectively inbuilt frames, and then other sections which fitted between them. This gives the segmented structure sometimes erroneously emphasised by modellers (the joins were filled with what the Vultee engineers, examining a Bf 110, unhelpfully describe as a material 'like glazers putty'). To create a 'low back' Spitfire required altering two fuselage frames and a handful of skins. To create a 'low back' Bf 109 would involve completely redesigning a large section of the fuselage and retooling to press and roll the elements concerned.
Another point to consider, given the small fuselage of the Bf 109, is where various important and bulky items would go. Most obviously difficult to move would be the MW 50 tank behind the pilot, but there are many others.
This is a bugbear of mine, people proposing alterations willy-nilly with no appreciation of just how difficult they would be to realise, how long they would require to be tested and proven, and the effect on series production.
For example when the British first tested the jettisoning of a 'clear view' hood on a low back Spitfire they discovered all sorts of unforeseen problems, not least the hood tearing the fuselage skin and then striking the fin!
Cheers
Steve

 

[pbehn]

From Bungays "The most dangerous enemy" discussing losses before 12 August 1940.

"But the aircraft most vulnerable of all to British fighters was the Bf109.RAF pilots managed to get a bead on 70 of them and of those they destroyed 54, some 77% a markedly higher destruction ratio than the 63% the BF109's achieved in return. This may be because damaged machines had further to fly to make it home and force landed in England or ditched and so were lost. But it also looks as if Spitfires and Hurricanes were even more deadly than the Bf109 itself, and that in fighter combat their eight brownings were at least as destructive as the two cannon and two machine guns of the the Bf109E."

Spitfires and Hurricanes removed the Stuka from the BoB due to prohibitive losses, they stopped raids from Norway by Bf110 escorted bombers due to prohibitive losses. Towards the end of the battle raids on London had bomber to escort ratios of 1:4 to prevent heavier bomber losses. Call the BoB a victory or a draw as you like the fact is that Spitfire and Hurricanes with 8 RCMGs were able to down bombers, dive bombers and fighters throughout the conflict, that is why the LW had to eventually give up.

Rubbishing the Spitfire and Hurricane does nothing to enhance the reputation of the Bf 109, for my tuppence they were the two greats of the conflict, they both stayed at the front line of service between the bi plane and jet ages. Between the two the latest model may have given an advantage but throughout the war they remained a dangerous adversary to one another, situation and pilot skill was usually the deciding factor when they met.

 

[GregP]

I like that Bill ... "bovine fecal matter." A politically correct phrase, if ever there was one. At this point his analysis of the Spitfire looks to be "up the unsanitary tributary without proper means of propulsion," or up shit creek without a paddle in English rather than political language.

Sorry, couldn't resist being slightly politically correct back. Too much fun ...

I'm sure both British and German pilots of the time would be both surprised and amazed at the same time to learn the Spitfire was useless at 250 mph due to aileron reversal! I know I am amazed since they roll quite nicely at that speed and higher in our airshow every year. I bet several former Luftwaffe pilots are wondering how it is they got shot sown by such a useless aircraft. Naturally they all thought the Mk XIV was a dog! A Rottweiler, to be sure, but that IS a dog.

I need a pint to think about this new information. I was under the impression is was quite superlative, aside from the tendency to nose over after every flight. But that first flight was a humdinger, just before the inevitable prop strike. That's why they went to 5 blades, so some would survive undamaged, to be used again in new props.

This reminds me of the fun we had when a new poster complained about the Gremans (instead of the Germans), and we made up complete Greman war history, with much fervor and tales of stupidity that nobody could disprove with any facts.

Hey Steve, are you sure they couldn't just use a saw for the low back 109? I thought it'd be easy. Well, today we DID spend 4+ hours just getting 6 rivets into VERY inaccessable areas of an old North American O-47, but the 109 was easy, right?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Neither! My gun club has a 500 M / 600 Yard Range which I use regularly. ( Almost every week!) I used to be a Sniper for the ASA-SOD and I practiced at long range every week that I was not on a mission. I qualified with the M-2 and M-82, and fired thousands of rounds out of them over a 20 year period. Did you know that the standard soft lead cored 710 grain .50 Cal bullet will perforate a rigidly mounted 3/8" AR500 armor steel plate at 600 yards? I have done it more than a few times. Heck, my .300 RUM with a 180 grain Ballistic Tip will do it at 500! Either steel cored AP round from the M-2 will perforate steel armor plates the thickness of which you would not believe at ranges you will swear it could not be done. ( Like 3/4" AR 500 at 300 Meters!)

And all of that irrelevent unless you were doing it at 20,000 ft, 250 kts and yanking and banking.

Comparing shooting stationary targetsat a range to shooting at a flying aircraft hell bent on getting away from you...

 

[FLYBOYJ]

While much is made of the "Aileron Reversal" problem, very few people understand that it is not something that suddenly happens, but gradually intrudes into the performance as the speed increases. So while the Spit is very easy to fly at 100-165 MPH, by the time you get to 200 the twisting wing starts to reduce the rate of roll enough that it starts to become a problem. By 250 MPH it has reduced the rate of roll enough to make high speed dog fights very dangerous with the Me-109, IF the Messer's pilot knew his business. And that was a very big IF in the prior sentence. Even after all of the various "Strengthening" projects, it took an entirely new wing WO the fancy elliptical planform to make the Spit competitive with 4-5 year old planes! One of the "Critical" design objectives stated in the contract was to to make the Spit's rate of roll a world beater, instead of last place!

Provide your reference for this (holding nose from stench of bovine fecal matter)

 

[Milosh]

Considering your quote by Shooter, err NeoCon, Adler and the 'stories' he has told already, I would say that is also a 'story'.

 

[pbehn]

And all of that irrelevent unless you were doing it at 20,000 ft, 250 kts and yanking and banking.

Comparing shooting stationary targets at a range to shooting at a flying aircraft hell bent on getting away from you...

Actually they can do, I was reading about the longest ever sniper kill. A stationary sniper shooting at a stationary target needed "about nine" shots to establish the range in perfect calm conditions, I doubt if he would have taken on the shot if they had be so much as walking.


In November 2009, Harrison consecutively struck two Talibanmachine gunners south of Musa Qala in Helmand Provincein Afghanistan at a range of 2,474 m (2,706 yd) using a L115A3 Long Range Rifle.[4][5][6][7][8] In a BBC interview, Harrison reported it took about nine shots for him and his spotter to range the target. Then, he reported, his first shot "on target" was a killing shot followed consecutively by a kill shot on a second machine gunner.
Craig Harrison (sniper) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

How about if I fly along in a helicopter at 5000' and hose sharks basking in the Gulf of Tonkin with an M-60?

I call BS!

The effective range of the M-60 is 1200 yards. 5000ft is 1600 + yards. Then you have to take into account the effect of the rotorwash and the wind caused by the moving aircraft. All of this with a suppression weapon.

Before you go any further, I was a US Army helo Crew Chief/Door Gunner and used the M-60.

Take your "No shit there I was..." story somewhere else.

Now get on topic. This thread is about the Bf 109. Got it?

 

[wuzak]

Wasn't the Me 209 an attempt to improve the Bf 109?

It had the basic fuselage of the 109 to which it added longer span wings with inward retracting wide track landing gear, an improved canopy, more power, with a DB 603 or Jumo 213, an annular radiator n place of the underwing radiators and a larger tail.

Its performance was disappointing compared to the similarly powered Fw 190D, but certainly some of these features could have been adopted for the Bf 109 (the Erla canopy being one that had already been adopted?).

Some more info about canopy improvements
Strange Experimental Erla Haube-canopy on a Bf 109 (K?)

 

[Shortround6]

For such an expert on the .50 cal gun he seems to be unaware that the only difference between AP ammo and "ball" ammo was that the steel core in the ball ammo was plain steel and not hardened while the core in the AP ammo was heat treated (hardened). Both steel cores weighed 402 grains in most batches (subject to production tolerance) there was a lead "filler" in the tip of BOTH projectiles that weighed 56.5 grains. There was no lead core military ammo even at the end of WW I.
I think somebody ripped him off on the "3/8" AR500 armor steel plate" he shot at 600yds. US government penetration table for the older M1 BALL lists penetration of armor plate at 600yds as 0.2in in 1/4 in plate and a whopping 0.02 in 3/8in armor plate (type not specified). Granted it was lower velocity than M2 Ball but it had the steel core

Penetrations are averages. Penetration in solid Oak (not planks) averaged 24.3in at 600yds with one maxing out at 33.8in.

 

[Shortround6]

Wasn't the Me 209 an attempt to improve the Bf 109?

It had the basic fuselage of the 109 to which it added longer span wings with inward retracting wide track landing gear, an improved canopy, more power, with a DB 603 or Jumo 213, an annular radiator n place of the underwing radiators and a larger tail.

Its performance was disappointing compared to the similarly powered Fw 190D, but certainly some of these features could have been adopted for the Bf 109 (the Erla canopy being one that had already been adopted?).

Some more info about canopy improvements
Strange Experimental Erla Haube-canopy on a Bf 109 (K?)

The 209 was an attempted improvement. The goal had been to use something like 60-65% of the structure of the 109 to keep the cost of transitioning hi and speed the conversion of the production lines. As performance fell the number of common parts also fell to around 40% at which point they decided it wasn't worth it.

 

[Shortround6]

Getting back to the original post and this Passage " Messerschmitt practically ignored the subject of low drag aerodynamics and one can tell that by an inspection of the 109E or G. The fact is evident even in close-up photographs. It was aerodynamically the most inefficient fighter of its time."

We have something of a disconnect in the 109 History. The F model being a very good clean up of the basic design with a major increase in speed and maneuverability using engines of the same power as late model 109Es. For late 1940 and early 1941 the F was one of the more efficient fighters of the time. Unfortunately this was "purchased" in part, by the use of rather light armament for the time.
With the variety of different G models it gets a little harder to pin down when things start to go pear shaped and aerodynamic cleanliness started going back down hill. The change to the 13mm cowl guns certainly didn't help and the increased weight that required larger tires (and wing bulges) didn't help either. I have no idea if the requirement for a pressure cabin on some of the early "G"s was made easier to meet by the use of the existing side hinge canopy.
Operational requirements (real life dictated some of the loss in aerodynamic efficiency so one may have to be careful in what "improvements" are suggested.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I call BS!

The effective range of the M-60 is 1200 yards. 5000ft is 1600 + yards. Then you have to take into account the effect of the rotorwash and the wind caused by the moving aircraft. All of this with a suppression weapon.

Before you go any further, I was a US Army helo Crew Chief/Door Gunner and used the M-60.

Take your "No shit there I was..." story somewhere else.

Now get on topic. This thread is about the Bf 109. Got it?

 

[wuzak]

Could something like the Avia S199's canopy have been a useful improvement for the 109?

http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/s199/s199-3.jpg

 

[GrauGeist]

Could something like the Avia S199's canopy have been a useful improvement for the 109?

How much drag will it produce?

It seems to me, if they retained the Erla Haub and then placed window panels behind the seat armor (like the P-36, P-40, P-47 or P-51A), this may have helped a great deal.

 

[Shortround6]

Possible, better vision for sure. Plenty of Avia 199 aircraft seem to have had the Galland hood. But then the Avia was pretty much a collection of found parts.

I have no idea if the airflow would have improved or been worse.

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

head armor was fixed to canopy making opening it a bit of a workout.
Not sure how sliding Malcolm hood canopy deals with head armor.

 

[BiffF15]

Grau,
As narrow as that fuselage was, with armor to look around, it might not have helped to add clear panels.
Cheers,
Biff

 

[GrauGeist]

True Biff, but as cramped as the cockpit was, it wouldn't have taken much to add a degree of improved vision.

The Erla Haub was a tremendous help, I can't really think that there would be more that could be done without reworking the fuselage.

 

[Greyman]

Ernst Udet's opinion - via postwar Wily Messerschmitt interview:

I recall a story about the famous General Udet, with whom I was on very good terms. When we did the 109, he was the chief of fighter squadrons. One time he came to me and said, "well, I heard about your development of a new fighter airplane, how about letting me see it". That was in 1935, a few days before the first flight of the airplane. So I took Udet into my shop, and he looked at the airplane, shaking his head, and climbed into the cockpit, which was open. He climbed in, and I must say he was one of the most famous World War One pilots, flying biplanes and these open planes. So he climbed into the cockpit and the mechanic closed the canopy and he didn't look enthusiastic at all and we were quite down-hearted. So when he got out, he patted me on the back and said, "Messerschmitt, this will never be a fighting airplane. The pilot needs an open cockpit. He has to feel the air to know the speed of the airplane. And then you'd better put another wing on top, and put a few wires and braces on, and then you'll have a real fighting airplane."