drgondog
Major
Hartmann didn't run out of juice - he ran out of options and took the smart 'out' by bailing out.
improving the 109??
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Hartmann didn't run out of juice - he ran out of options and took the smart 'out' by bailing out.
fubar57
General
This the one Steve.......?
GregP
Major
I recall reading he DID run out of fuel once in a dogfight, but I didn't follow that up with any research to find out if I could locate that in more than one source. He survived and that is good enough for me to know his luck held for the entire war.
He was rather definitely not an F-104 fan. Got him "retired" from the Luftwaffe.
He was rather definitely not an F-104 fan. Got him "retired" from the Luftwaffe.
drgondog
Major
One of the most respected Thud drivers I knew, a pioneer Weasel in the 355th, was TDY as a squadron CO in early 70s that flew NATO Red Flag missions extremely low level in F-104 to badly embarrass USAF/RAF/NATO Base commander. He loved it almost as much as the F-105. He loved the RCAF folks he flew with also, citing them to be as good as any he ever flew with
JW,
I don't quite know what to make of a couple of comments here. If I have misinterpreted I apologize in advance.
Jumping out of an airplane prior to being shot down is not, in my opine, chickening out. I have seen enough gun footage, and read kill accounts where Lutwaffe pilots jumped out, especially in the last year of the war to think they were probably instructed to do so. Planes are more easily replaced than pilots particularly in WW2.
Running out of gas in a fight can happen, easily. That it didn't happen more is surprising especially considering the lack of endurance of 109s and 190s. It's easy when sitting at a desk to critique what someone does or did in a life or death duel. It's much more difficult to actually do it. I can easily imagine flying a mission, and towards the latter half of it ending up in a large furball. Fuel flow goes up tremendously, and time remaining aloft drops precipitously. Also if my friends are engaged in a defensive fight and I can sway the battle I will. If that means the Luftwaffe loses one more BF-109 then so be it, they were easily replaced.
I have flown 106 combat missions in the Eagle. About 1/3 as a wingman, the rest after having checked out as a flight lead or IP. I briefed without fail that we would all come back from the the sortie, period dot. I would never want to look my friends wife in the face and tell her I could have saved your husband except for this or that. Your responsibility as the flight lead is to not wade in over your head unless the mission required it. You job as the wingman is to protect your buds, and as a team to make the other guy die for his country not vice versa.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. "
Theodore Roosevelt
352 kills. The number one Ace ever. In order to shoot someone down with a gun you must get in close, so close you could be shot as well. Hartmanns observe, decide, attack, retreat mantra (pardon if not exactly correct) sounds very similar to something John Boyd "invented". Read his book to see what influence that has had on the military.
Cheers,
Biff
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Goddamn - why am I prohibited from giving bacon more than once?!
Shortround6
Major General
It's good, I did it for you
Don't worry, I gave him an extra serving as well.
It is nice to have people with actual experience in air combat to offset the armchair warriors.
Biff, all i can offer is a very simple thank you for bringing a bit of sense and perspective to this thread !
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Once again James W. Displays his stupidity!
Biff - it's evident we're dealing with a moron and armchair ace who would probably piss his pants in a real airplane. Your service to your country is appreciated, your posts and experience are always welcomed around here
Biff - it's evident we're dealing with a moron and armchair ace who would probably piss his pants in a real airplane. Your service to your country is appreciated, your posts and experience are always welcomed around here
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Gents,
I learn far more than I contribute here, or I get far more than I give!
The folks who pass through here I think are learning something I picked up awhile ago. And that this place is a very unique and special place to learn, contribute, exchange and vet knowledge and ideas. I arrogantly enough thought I could contribute much more than I have when I discovered this place. However you guys have been a class act in gingerly shepparding me through the learning process!
It is a privilage to come in here!
Cheers,
Biff
I learn far more than I contribute here, or I get far more than I give!
The folks who pass through here I think are learning something I picked up awhile ago. And that this place is a very unique and special place to learn, contribute, exchange and vet knowledge and ideas. I arrogantly enough thought I could contribute much more than I have when I discovered this place. However you guys have been a class act in gingerly shepparding me through the learning process!
It is a privilage to come in here!
Cheers,
Biff
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Again, you're backpedaling like the armchair wimpy asshole that you are. The plot thickens.
Of course he didn't chicken out, you are just showing how much you don't know not how much you do. I am not a pilot and have never met a WW2 ace but I did share a track with Barry Sheen and Damon Hill, the aces and the champions are not in their position because they are mad or reckless they have cool courage and continue to think when others panic. I read one account of a German ace who could judge when he was coming into being hit by a deflection shot because he was disappearing under the nose of his attacker, then he bunted forward, briefly was a target,then went into the ether as far as his attacker is concerned.
Watch any top class motor race, or motorcycle race, no one "chickens out" they are all driving or riding at the limit all the time, there is always someone who is better at taking things to the limit, they are the aces
fubar57
General
Nice!!
michaelmaltby
Colonel
Sensible man.
Pbehn,
Sorry to take so long to reply, I missed your question the first time through.
We do not employ the gun via a screen, looking outside at the target is a must to insure separation / collision avoidance. We do use the HUD but that's not required. High aspect, high line of sight shots will see you pull and sometimes release the trigger before the target aircraft gets into the HUD. Do to time of flight for the bullets if you are still on the trigger when he enters the HUD those bullets will fall aft of the target and therefore be wasted depending on range. We don't use tracers either, as technology has given us a means by which we know where the rounds are / going. And it's wicked accurate.
Cheers,
Biff
Great post Biff, it kinda makes you wonder why so many shots miss the target on star wars, but then again I didnt see anyone with an iPad using the internet on Star Trek.
I was actually referring to WW2 gun cams. There is an often used clip of a plane opening fire on He111 with the tracer curving off well behind. If the tracer was landing on target the He111 wouldnt be in frame, just a lot of tracer firing at a blue sky.
