drgondog
Major
Hartmann didn't run out of juice - he ran out of options and took the smart 'out' by bailing out.
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& didn't he have to jump, when he ran out of juice attempting to evade a persistent P-51 cluster attack?
He was a lucky guy, even to the extent of surviving Stalin's 'care' - after being handed over to them..
Sometimes luck beats skill, its a good attribute to have on your side, as Chuck Yeager ( still going at nearly a century) can attest.
Yeah, for sure, that's why I wrote "juice", to be a bit ambiguous about it, rather than imply 'chickening out'
& "he ran out of options" as you put it well, or "juice" - to fight 'em with any real prospect of a good outcome.
(& by not writing B4 avgas specifically), but I guess his luck held with the parachute ride down,
both canopy-wise & not being gut-shot by the P-51s.
JW,
I don't quite know what to make of a couple of comments here. If I have misinterpreted I apologize in advance.
Jumping out of an airplane prior to being shot down is not, in my opine, chickening out. I have seen enough gun footage, and read kill accounts where Lutwaffe pilots jumped out, especially in the last year of the war to think they were probably instructed to do so. Planes are more easily replaced than pilots particularly in WW2.
Running out of gas in a fight can happen, easily. That it didn't happen more is surprising especially considering the lack of endurance of 109s and 190s. It's easy when sitting at a desk to critique what someone does or did in a life or death duel. It's much more difficult to actually do it. I can easily imagine flying a mission, and towards the latter half of it ending up in a large furball. Fuel flow goes up tremendously, and time remaining aloft drops precipitously. Also if my friends are engaged in a defensive fight and I can sway the battle I will. If that means the Luftwaffe loses one more BF-109 then so be it, they were easily replaced.
I have flown 106 combat missions in the Eagle. About 1/3 as a wingman, the rest after having checked out as a flight lead or IP. I briefed without fail that we would all come back from the the sortie, period dot. I would never want to look my friends wife in the face and tell her I could have saved your husband except for this or that. Your responsibility as the flight lead is to not wade in over your head unless the mission required it. You job as the wingman is to protect your buds, and as a team to make the other guy die for his country not vice versa.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. "
Theodore Roosevelt
352 kills. The number one Ace ever. In order to shoot someone down with a gun you must get in close, so close you could be shot as well. Hartmanns observe, decide, attack, retreat mantra (pardon if not exactly correct) sounds very similar to something John Boyd "invented". Read his book to see what influence that has had on the military.
Cheers,
Biff
It's good, I did it for youGoddamn - why am I prohibited from giving bacon more than once?!
Goddamn - why am I prohibited from giving bacon more than once?!
Biff, all i can offer is a very simple thank you for bringing a bit of sense and perspective to this thread !JW,
I don't quite know what to make of a couple of comments here. If I have misinterpreted I apologize in advance.
Jumping out of an airplane prior to being shot down is not, in my opine, chickening out. I have seen enough gun footage, and read kill accounts where Lutwaffe pilots jumped out, especially in the last year of the war to think they were probably instructed to do so. Planes are more easily replaced than pilots particularly in WW2.
Running out of gas in a fight can happen, easily. That it didn't happen more is surprising especially considering the lack of endurance of 109s and 190s. It's easy when sitting at a desk to critique what someone does or did in a life or death duel. It's much more difficult to actually do it. I can easily imagine flying a mission, and towards the latter half of it ending up in a large furball. Fuel flow goes up tremendously, and time remaining aloft drops precipitously. Also if my friends are engaged in a defensive fight and I can sway the battle I will. If that means the Luftwaffe loses one more BF-109 then so be it, they were easily replaced.
I have flown 106 combat missions in the Eagle. About 1/3 as a wingman, the rest after having checked out as a flight lead or IP. I briefed without fail that we would all come back from the the sortie, period dot. I would never want to look my friends wife in the face and tell her I could have saved your husband except for this or that. Your responsibility as the flight lead is to not wade in over your head unless the mission required it. You job as the wingman is to protect your buds, and as a team to make the other guy die for his country not vice versa.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. "
Theodore Roosevelt
352 kills. The number one Ace ever. In order to shoot someone down with a gun you must get in close, so close you could be shot as well. Hartmanns observe, decide, attack, retreat mantra (pardon if not exactly correct) sounds very similar to something John Boyd "invented". Read his book to see what influence that has had on the military.
Cheers,
Biff
I covered one for ya'Goddamn - why am I prohibited from giving bacon more than once?!
C'mon, I wrote that I DIDN'T want to imply that he'd chickened out..
Jeeze I think I know a bit about how he'd feel, from this gang up.
Take it easy, eh fella..
Of course he didn't chicken out, you are just showing how much you don't know not how much you do. I am not a pilot and have never met a WW2 ace but I did share a track with Barry Sheen and Damon Hill, the aces and the champions are not in their position because they are mad or reckless they have cool courage and continue to think when others panic. I read one account of a German ace who could judge when he was coming into being hit by a deflection shot because he was disappearing under the nose of his attacker, then he bunted forward, briefly was a target,then went into the ether as far as his attacker is concerned.C'mon, I wrote that I DIDN'T want to imply that he'd chickened out..
Jeeze I think I know a bit about how he'd feel, from this gang up.
Pbehn,Just a thought, if an attack was a high deflection shot would the target appear on screen or just tracers firing into an open sky?
Great post Biff, it kinda makes you wonder why so many shots miss the target on star wars, but then again I didnt see anyone with an iPad using the internet on Star Trek.Pbehn,
Sorry to take so long to reply, I missed your question the first time through.
We do not employ the gun via a screen, looking outside at the target is a must to insure separation / collision avoidance. We do use the HUD but that's not required. High aspect, high line of sight shots will see you pull and sometimes release the trigger before the target aircraft gets into the HUD. Do to time of flight for the bullets if you are still on the trigger when he enters the HUD those bullets will fall aft of the target and therefore be wasted depending on range. We don't use tracers either, as technology has given us a means by which we know where the rounds are / going. And it's wicked accurate.
Cheers,
Biff