Infantry VS Armor

[Glider]

Its hard to tell from the phot but it seems to me that there is a fair bit of cover behind and to the left of the village and thats the way that I would go.
Smoke screen doesnt have to cover the entire area just in front of the village as any armour will be in the village. The troops will be moving at the same time not just the bazooka with MG's in overwatch. If you have an MG post outside in a bunch of trees outside it will be isolated from support as the smoke will be behind it. There you have one MG against all the attacking forces and it will last seconds. As a result the atackers will be able to get close. When they are close enought to assult the village, artillery will move to bombard the area just behind the area to be assulted and the civillians will just have to take care of themselves.
You underestimate the artillery support the allies will have, British observers had direct access to 24 x 25pds and within (on average) two minutes could call up and additional 48 x 25pds if the defence was difficult. Americans have slightly less but still considerable. The emphasis is on taking the ground with as few losses as possible. If that meant flattening the village then so be it.

The scenario you describe I would consider to be very unrealistic. No one would send 100 troops across an open field without support if they believed or suspected that German armour was around. Some form of support from AT guns or a platoon of tanks, plus artillery support would be the norm.

If the defenders had a company defending you would expect the attackers to have a 3 to 1 advantage without armour and they would still have artillery support

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

As for my AT training, well I served for over 20 years and got my fair share of training on how to combat tanks in various ways - it depends allot upon the situation at hand.

My I ask who you served with? I am not doubting you, just wish to know.

 

[Soren]

No one would send 100 troops across an open field without support if they believed or suspected that German armour was around

Bingo!

I'll address th rest of your post later.

 

[Soren]

My I ask who you served with? I am not doubting you, just wish to know.

I won't tell you Adler, I'm sorry. I infact never talk about it, it's an ended chapter in my life.

 

[parsifal]

there were civilans in Caen and that did not deter the allies from levelling that place. The allies were not that sensitive to collateral damage when it came to military imperative. So, in come the bombers, and the Corps level artillery. I stick to that plan. I could care less about civilian casualties. TGher Germans are in breach of international law by trying to use the civilans as human shields. After the war, the german commander will be tried and punished accordingly.

As for having to take it by nightfall. I am in an allied army, not a fascist. I am the man on the spot, and if the report comes back from me that the assault should wait till nightfall, then wait for nightfall it would be. I am intrinsically allowed far greater latitude as to the timing of my attack, and even if the force will attack. It was one of the great advantages of the allied armies in the late war period.

I know one thing I would not do, and that is cross that field in broad daylight unsupported, without the slightest idea of what i am up against.

As for the reinforcements issue arriving. I assume that the allies have total air superiority, and any movement by daylight by the Germans is going to attract interdiction by the allied airpower aloft, which is on call cab ranked style, for any detected movement. We are pretty safe in that regard.

We cannot really move until we have proper maps of the area. So the starting parameters are cockeyed anyway. But judging by what is shown at the edges of this photo, and in the background, it appears that there is cover on the flanks, and at the rear of the target. There is also some reverse slope happening in places, which might assist in working around the flanks, and to the rear of this positions. There is also some possibility of using the artillery availbale to create the cover needed by cratering the ground, and creating safer lines of advance. (using the craters formed by the artillery as cover for the fire teams)

Because I dont know whats in the town, and the advance is just too open to make it safe for the infantry to advance, and because i have been robbed of all the inherent advantages that the allies enjoyed at this time, and you will not apply any quid pro quo to the defenders, it becomes an almost impossible task for the infantry to take this position. It is obvious that you have never undertaken any staff excercise, by the very nature of this scenario. But despite all these impediments, it is not impossible

I would invest the position by moving carefully, and unobserved, out of range of the defenders guns, or where possible, by using natural cover. It appears from the photo that either and both flanks provide this sort of cover.

The principal to apply here is to contain this little hornets nest, not to stick your head in the meat grinder

Knowing now that germans are moving to reinforce the position my force needs to do a few things.

We need to detail a few people to keep a close eye on any movement within the village. The artillery that is now shelling and flattening the village should keep the village under constant barrage, and also be used to create cover where needed. The engineers, (which in the allied formations are mechanized, and able to complete combat engineer tasks at approximately ten times the speed of their axis counterparts will mine all of the exits from the village (unseen by the enemy). Meanwhile the main force has entrenched itself in preparation to repel the German reinforcements you mentioned, using once again mines, barbed wire, trenches and the like. If there is time, the approach lines and ranges for the expected MLA of the reinforcements is also marked out, to assist in ranging for the artillery

Essentially, I am using classic containment strategy, to force the defnders out of their concealment, whilst at the same time adding concentric rings of defences that wil make any breakout by the defenders increasingly difficult to tackle. I am forceing the defenders to reveal their strength, disposition, and intentions, before i commit my own forces. i am placing my own forces in positions to repel these reinforcements you are talking about. if the reinforcements are going to be overwhelming, I will know that even before the defenders, by allied air recon, and ultra. by 1944, ultra was providing so much detailed information on Wehrmacht deployments almost down to squad level. If, for example there was a battalian moving toward me, I would know it. If there were no reinforcements available to help me, I would not risk my forces on a suicide mission. If the reinforcements are manageable for the Platoon to handle (which is what you have given me) I would make sure they never make it to their intended destination.

The best chance for the Germans would be to try to co-ordinate their break out, with the arrival of the reinforcements. However, if they do this, they hit the AT defences I have spent the day putting into place. The minute I observe the the movement of the defenders out of the town, I would detail two of the reserve squads (about 20 men) to start moving into the town behind these mystery tanks that you are describing. If ther are Infantry supporting your tanks, you have broken the rules of ewngagement, and have cheated basically. Your tankers cannot lay mines, or build defences, in the same way that my force can because they dont have the equipment, and they dont have the numbers. The rules of engagement are, you have tanks, we have everything else

Once the reinforcements have been sent packing, it then gets down to a waiting game really. We either get the information we need to determine the strength of the defenders, the village gets totally destroyed by our artillery , or we force them out by the time honoured technique of containment. Your people will be starved out (or more probabaly forced out by thirst) within two or three days. Its not spectacular, but it is the textbook method for dealing with this sort of situation. And no allied commander is going to force me to take unneccesary casualties, break all the rules of the Infantry handbook that we have trained for, by demanding that I take the town by nightfall. If they did, they would get themsleves courtmartialled in the allied army

 

[parsifal]

Bingo!

What are you saying Bingo to. The starting point for this strand of the thread, was that in your opinion unsupported tanks could overwhelm defending Infantry defending in the open. There has been some discussion about that, but now the parameters have changed. No longer is the Infantry defending, it is attacking. A number of us have pointed that out to you. I personally have said that I never asserted that Infantry could effectively attack without proper armoured support. It can do it, but its difficult.

However, for the purposes of the excercise, we have tackled the problem. Its interesting that those of us with combat trainig that we are prepared to talk about, have pretty much come up with very similar solutions to this battle problem.

So i dont know what you are Bingoing about....

 

[pbfoot]

My I ask who you served with? I am not doubting you, just wish to know.

as well

 

[Soren]

Ofcourse, being curious is what makes us human so I don't blame you.

 

[Juha]

Now I woke yesterday at 10 min to 7 am and noticed that my daughter still not had shut off my pc. So I gave a look on this thread, spent a minute to read your post, solution took a minute, typed the answer some 15 minutes, my English isn't very good, sign-off shut the pc, gave a quick look to morning paper, a quick breakfast and at 10 min to 8 went to work. So my solution was a snap decision and we have been talking what chances infantry had against tanks.

Your opinion seems to have been that panzers were all powerful against infantry without good A/T support.

"The Allied infantry was absolutely dependant on AT support in any way or form when faced with German armor, otherwise it was a one way trip outta this world."

"Like I said, the Allied infantry were absolutely dependant on AT support when faced with German armor, otherwise the German tanks would be over them in no time. (And that happened ALLOT during WW2)"

"Out in the open you guys wouldn't have stood a chance, you would've all been blown to smithereens within seconds."

"Besides I'm sure most soldiers will scoot when then only have a single RPG and see two or three tanks coming their way. Just the sight of a tank is enough to make many panic."

"Now back to WW2 imagine a squad seeing a Tiger coming their way when they only have a PIAT at their disposal ! Sheer terror mate! Sheer terror! If Allied tankers suffered from Tigerphobia think about the poor infantry who bumped into one without any AT support!"

"Out in the open, as in with no trenches to hide in but only perhaps some bushes, trees, a ditch or crater, and with ONE RPG, against three well manned tanks complimenting each other not even 100 men will stand a chance, it will be a turkey shoot. So what to do in that situation?? Scoot! But not by running blindly into fire ofcourse (Are we stupid ??), but by crawling away in cover, or dashing between cover in both direction in order to divert fire as much as possible. But all in all it's a disasterous situation to be in as casualties is assured."

None had questioned the usefulness of tanks but I and Parsifal had pointed that tanks alone were not invulnerable and good infantry could fight against them successfully. Not in every time, I can immediately recall some instances were panzers overran US infantry rather easily but also cases were infantry was successful.

And when asked how you explained A" Coy/5th DCLI very successful fight against Tigers and Panthers in 22 Sept 44 W of Elst, of course no answer from you.

And how you explain all those difficulties German armour had when fighting against Paras in ETO? Even if panzers were successful it took very much longer than seconds to subdue paras and many times Paras succeeded to hold their positions.

On the scenario
How many Hetzers there were in Normandy, IIRC none.
now where I say that I sent bazooka team over, I wrote "the idea that a bazooka team or two being infiltrating into village in the cover of the smokescreens would make them very uneasy." One can lay smoke to test the situation.
If we returned the original question infantry vs tank and the village was occupied with 1-4 panzers without support. I fired a couple smoke screens because chances are than one was blanking a sector not properly covered by the panzers because unseen panzers in a village didn't have good fields of fire. One panzer would in very high probability cover the best line of approach so no use to use smoke to cover it. As I wrote panzercrews would not like the idea Bazooka teams infiltrating into village, so chances are that they would open mg-fire into screens or at least move panzer(s) to cover screen(s) badly covered from their initial positions. So probably if there are panzers you can pinpoint 1-2 of them and you can guess roughly where the one covering the best line of advance is. Of course you cannot be sure on situation but that was normal in WWII. If no reaction and you have to attack then again lay some smoke screens now to cover a bit different sectors, in case that the first set of screens covered sectors well covered by the panzers from their initial positions and the panzermen having good nerves. If there had been movement use one of the screens to cover the sector you think the panzer had covered from its initial position (probably panzers each has had its own sector to cover, to cover as much ground as possible) and other to cover the same sector that had earlier forced a movement irrespective if it had returned back to its initial position or not. Plus at least one more screen. And use the screen you think now uncovered by panzer to cover your advance. If you can get into village, IMHO your chances are good to force Germans out, of course panzers once outside the village can make your life miserable afterwards. I know that there are many ifs in the plan but maybe worth of trying if attack is mandatory and the wind conditions allowed effective use of smoke.

And I'm still interested in your military training, because
I really want to know in which army the practise was that if they were without good A/T support and saw 3 enemy tank approaching they run like a hell away. I cannot see much use of that kind infantry.

Now it well past midday and sun is shining, so end and over.

Juha
ex alik (Corporal >>) of 2./KymPionP

 

[parsifal]

Guys

You have to respect Sorens wish not to talk about his military service. I know it looks suspicious, but we dont have to sink so low a to tear someone to pieces because they are unwilling to talk. I dont know if soren is full of Sh*t or not, and i will say if he didnt want to talk about his experience, he should not have used it as a defence, but I also refuse to tear anyone to pieces over their military service, or lack of it. We win this argument using our intelligence and experience, not by becoming as bad as our opponents. That is no way to win an argument. Hopefully at the end of this everybody will have learnt something of the issues, and come away from the discussions the better for it.

 

[Soren]

Guys, I don't talk about it because it's over and because I enjoy my anonymity. I've had some rather bad experiences which keeps me from posting my real name, address, country of origin etc etc..Now for anyone who hasn't experienced the same that is bound too look somewhat suspicious and there's nothing to do about that..

So I could tell you where I served but I would blow it all to pieces then. What I can tell you is that I was a Spec Ops member for many years. In some years I might open up more, but not now.

Juha,

Don't try to misunderstand me on purpose. Ofcourse one shall not run in the face of stiff opposition. BUT against three tanks, in open ground, with ONE RPG, you stay low a get them to pass without getting noticed and then you notify what'ever support you have in the area. Now if you're certain you can get away rather easily, if lets say your watching them from a treeline, then take one out and scoot, shoot scoot as they say. So by running away I obviously didn't mean get up and run, cause then you're really in it to your neck!

Also keep in mind that facing tanks with ineffective weapons is a freaking scary business.

With effective handheld AT weapons, and/or explosives there's no doubt that very few men can effectively combat tanks, esp. in Urban and heavily vegetated areas.

 

[Soren]

On the scenario
How many Hetzers there were in Normandy, IIRC none.

IIRC a very few, but it was merely to prove the point that a TD could be lurking in one of those spots, be it a Hetzer, Jagdpanzer IV or StuG.

now where I say that I sent bazooka team over, I wrote "the idea that a bazooka team or two being infiltrating into village in the cover of the smokescreens would make them very uneasy." One can lay smoke to test the situation.
If we returned the original question infantry vs tank and the village was occupied with 1-4 panzers without support. I fired a couple smoke screens because chances are than one was blanking a sector not properly covered by the panzers because unseen panzers in a village didn't have good fields of fire. One panzer would in very high probability cover the best line of approach so no use to use smoke to cover it. As I wrote panzercrews would not like the idea Bazooka teams infiltrating into village, so chances are that they would open mg-fire into screens or at least move panzer(s) to cover screen(s) badly covered from their initial positions. So probably if there are panzers you can pinpoint 1-2 of them and you can guess roughly where the one covering the best line of advance is. Of course you cannot be sure on situation but that was normal in WWII. If no reaction and you have to attack then again lay some smoke screens now to cover a bit different sectors, in case that the first set of screens covered sectors well covered by the panzers from their initial positions and the panzermen having good nerves. If there had been movement use one of the screens to cover the sector you think the panzer had covered from its initial position (probably panzers each has had its own sector to cover, to cover as much ground as possible) and other to cover the same sector that had earlier forced a movement irrespective if it had returned back to its initial position or not. Plus at least one more screen. And use the screen you think now uncovered by panzer to cover your advance. If you can get into village, IMHO your chances are good to force Germans out, of course panzers once outside the village can make your life miserable afterwards. I know that there are many ifs in the plan but maybe worth of trying if attack is mandatory and the wind conditions allowed effective use of smoke.

Ok, so you want to pinpoint any possible threats, but let me counter you tactics here;

As you lay down the smoke the few Germans present in the town hold their fire, knowing that opening up will ofcourse reveal their position. So no reaction. Now after this do you then put down another smokescreen or do you advance on the city with full visibility so that your two Shermans can locate and open fire on anyone who tries to lay down fire on your men?

One option is best if there's no immediate threat of enemy armor, while the other is best if there is.

But now I'll let you know some of what you in the scenario don't know;

There is infact a single tank inside the city, a Tiger with a crack Waffen SS crew from the eastern front, so very cocky and used to just head on assaulting any opposition. And on top of that there's an observer at the edge of the city, prepared to radio any sighting of enemies to the Tiger.

What for example are you going to do if suddenly this Tiger comes full steam through your smokescreen straight at your men ? I think a hint of Tigerphobia would start to kick in amongst quite a few of your men. Remember the reputation this tank had, it was seen as nearly indetructable, and its certainly no joke when veterans say some panicked just by the mention of one on the battlefield.

 

[Juha]

Soren
Sorry Your crack crew probably Killed as they emerged through smokescreen. The idea of use the first smokescreen only was to test enemy reaction and your observer would not see through smoke either. Secondly, tanks never came through smokescreen suddenly, you can hear the starting of engine and hear it constantly after that. Now, what you didn't know that one of the Shermans was Firefly, which of course moved into overwatch position as the smoke shells began to explode near the edges of village. So when your crack crew emerged blindy out of smokescreen the will take a couple of 17pdr shots and so probably follow the path of Wittmann.

Really your plan doesn't sound like one made by one with 20 years of military experience, more like like one made by an eager teenager with fixation of over-heavy tanks and so on.

Juha

 

[Soren]

It's not my plan and I don't give a **** what you think about me, it's completely irrelevant and only meant to start a fight, I guess you didn't get the warning let out by the mods about this.

Furthermore there are no fireflys available (Do you even have a clue how many Fireflies there were in Normandy ??), you have two M4 Shermans, now what the heck are they supposedly going to do Juha ?

Also there's nothing unrealistic about the Tiger suddenly coming full steam through your smoke to engage you, Tiger crews were used to just head assaulting any opposition - remember what Wittmann did, he charged full steam out in the open to engage what he thought as regular Shermans, much to his surprise it was a bunch of Fireflies.

 

[parsifal]

Soren, would you agree that using a Tiger as an assault tank is not the best way to employ such a high value piece of hardware. The tiger, with its slow speed, slow turret traverse is at a disadvantage compared to lighter tanks. It is just as likley to lose a track or become immobilised by AT Mines and the like (which Juha did forget to put into place). Your tank advancing out of the village means that that the Infantry advanicing is going to immediately know, and manouvre to avoid it, moreover this will happen at considerable range, because the field is so open. Being such an open field is a two edged sword, you see us early, but we see you early. if you adopt a plan that witholds your fire until the last minute, you are going to get a few of the Infantrymen, but the arc of fire would have become so wide, that you have no hope of getting many of the targets. The Infantry, faced with that iemergency would have to make a run for it (say 100 yards or so) into the Village itself .

Wherever that tank is, the infantry will be busy flanking it and avoiding any frontal assault against it. So in that sense, your comment that the Infantry is scattered is true, but the second part of your argument, that the Infantry is cut to pieces is not. The Infantry is simply using its "manouverability" to work around the tank, and stalk the tiger. There are tactics for dealing with tanks in the open

If I were confronted by a tank sallying forth from the village, I would immediately scatter the Infantry in the immediate vicinity of the tank itself. These forces in the immediate engagement area are only demonstrating in front of the tank, keeping it busy for the rest of the force, which cannot be engaged by the behemoth. At the same time they are moving into the smoke (for concealment...they can discharge smoke grenades themselves, and/or call it down from the support artillery). The visibility advantage that your heavy tank is relying on is pretty quickly netralized, and all of a sudden it is surrounded by multiple targets, which it cannot see. Neither can the infantry see the Tiger, but whereas the infantry is more or less moving silently, the Tank is making a hell of a racket. All of a sudden, the hunter has become the hunted. Moreover, the Tank might get a few of the soldiers, but not nearly as many as you are arguing.

Meantime, the bulk of the force, which by definition is not engaged by the tank. (most probably attack by the Infantry is that it is flanking the position on either side of the town, and at the rear. At best the tiger is engaging 1/3 of the attacking Infantry. This means that even if the tank is 100% successfrul in defeating the Infantry force it has engaged (and it wont get anyway near that level of efficiency, if it hits five men, it will have done well). This means that the assaulting Infantry has, in the main, captured the village, with about 95% of its force intact.

As for the two Shermans, well, there would need to be four or five of them to adequately engage the tiger, again by exploiting the lack of mobility and slow turret traverse, to try and get a flank shot into the beast. But in my opinion, us having tanks is against the rules of engagement anyway, so I discount their presence.

You mentioned also the presence of an observer in the city, whioch is contrary to the original scenario parameters, so yet again the scenario has changed. You now have some supporting Infantry.

But your observer is useless, if the assault is occurring under the cover of smake. The Infantry that is advancing should be in the smoke, not behind it or otherwise outside of the smokescreen. The last thing the infantry wants, with its short ranged weapons, is range with which to engage. So the allied infantry is in the smoke, not outside it. And the smoke screen is enormous by the way, given the amount of firepower at the Platoons disposal.

Oh, and your statement about Tigerphobia is not true for this scenario. This almost never happened, except in the most gree of units. In fact the Infantry is probably salivating at the prospect of taking out a crack Tiger crew

You also failed to address the plan I had put together, which would never see this situation arise at all.

We have no real life way of testing any of these theories, so we have pretty much reached an impasse. There are however, commercial military simulations that might be able to do this . There is of course "Squad leader" also "panzer leader", and I have a couple of editable computer games that we could run this scenario past (most notably "West Front and "East front, by talonsoft). Would you like me to test this scenari0o against some of these simulations, and see what the outcome is, according to those designers?

 

[Soren]

Parsifal,

There's around 1,000m to the village from the tree line, and I'd think that for the smokescreen to be effective it will be put rather close to the village. Giving the Tiger quite a good field of view and a heck of a long way for your men to be running. And trust me allot more than five men would get killed in this scenario, the Tiger's two machineguns, esp. the Radio operator's alone proving devastating. (Not to mention an 88mm HE shell packed with 7 kg's of high explosives, it will create a heck of a mess) Also, if you have served (I suspect you have) you will know just as well as I that with all the fire going on it's hard to hear anything much less a tank coming rolling a 3,000 ft away.

As for the Tiger, well it is infact quite fast and an experienced crew used the whole tank to get the gun on target, the Tiger being an ideal gun platform remaining stable, the Regenerative steering turning the tank around on the spot. And the vision from the inside the Tiger is actually quite good, esp. the commander has a good view. Many commanders also used opened the top hatch and just stuck the top of their head up to see even better, like below:

And as for Tigerphobia, well no it wasn't just green units Parsifal, it could strike anyone but esp. Allied tank crews were afraid. And when a single Tiger can take out an entire British tank collumn there's also good reason to be afraid. (It would be similar to facing a Leopard 2 or M1A2 Abrams in a T-55 today)

And about commercial simulations, well I'd recommend Combat Mission 3 then, it's the only realistic WW2 strategy game out there. So we could try this if you will ?

 

[Glider]

A couple of small points.
a) The Tiger would be closed down and almost blind. The alternative being open in which case everyone will be firing at the tank commander who will be dead in seconds. So its effectiveness will be greatly reduced
b) Your experienced Tiger commander would probably tell you where to stick a plan as foolhardy as this. If you want to argue, he has the tank.
c) As to the number of Fireflies, there were probably at least as many as there were Tigers. The norm was one in each platoon although some units preferred to group them all into one platoon. So your two Shermans would almost certainly have a Firefly with them
d) Why do the people fighting German always have Tigers? PzIV's, Stug III's, Panthers were at least as common and for individual fighting more common as the Tigers were in special units and infantry support was normally left to the SPG's.
e) How many people were in this town anyway? something that was never mentioned.
f) Charging through a smokescreen into an unknown enemy, of unknown strength and disposition. Who will hear you coming first, see you coming first is the daftest plan I have ever heard of.
g) I make no claim to any AT training but can see holes in this the size of a double decker bus.

 

[Soren]

b) Your experienced Tiger commander would probably tell you where to stick a plan as foolhardy as this. If you want to argue, he has the tank

Tell that to Wittmann one of the most successful tank commanders of all time.

Fact is that in war no plan is 100% safe and you have to occasionally gamble if you want to win.

 

[Glider]

Tell that to Wittmann one of the most successful tank commanders of all time.

Fact is that in war no plan is 100% safe and you have to occasionally gamble if you want to win.

Absolutely confident that he never charged out blind through a smokescreen into an unknown enemy. People who do that, don't last long enough to become that good.

 

[parsifal]

I dont have the game you mention, but the east front series has won a total of five realism awards that I know of, whilst squad leader has been around forever, and is very realistic. Incidentally we dont need a "strategy" simulation, we need a tactical simulation

In order for me to let the computer test your scenario, you will need to send me a rough sketch of your map, a well as the forces you want me to feed into the simulation. I can also get some of my colleagues in the design group that i contribute to, to test out the scenario as independant observers. Its about a fair as I can gat i am afraid.

PLease give some thought to your map, and send it to me, I will then be able to complete the excercise and get back to you