Is Spitfire relly superior to FW-190?

Chiron · Apr 21, 2005

Every fan of Spit. claim that the Spitfire IX outperformed the Fx-190, but I meant Germans did imporove Fx-190 to counter Spitfire Ix, right?

So, which one is best European fighter of WWII?

cheddar cheese · Apr 22, 2005

Fw-190D-9...

FLYBOYJ · Apr 22, 2005

I put this in another post:

Advanced FW-190 feature:

"The engine was controlled by an ingenious, advanced Kommandogerat-a sort of electronic brain box that greatly relieved the pilot's responsibility to control airscrew pitch (rpm), fuel mixture and engine boost (throttle) in combat. In addition, the engine's two-speed supercharger shifted automatically at about 21,000 feet, and control of the important oil-cooler flaps was automatic, thus relieving the pilot of two more major cockpit duties. The pilot needed only to keep his hand on the throttle and his eye on his assailant. In the heat of combat, it was very easy for an Allied fighter pilot to forget to move one or both of the other two required controls if he needed immediate full power to beat his opponent."

In todays world this is called FADEC (Full Authority Digital Engine Control).

Many aircraft designers today didn't even know this existed. I believe Beech was the first GA company to do this (1980s) and relized they might have patten problems when they found out about this system. A real tribute to Kurt Tank and his design team!

Chiron · Apr 22, 2005

I dont know if its true in reality. I found Fw-190 is much difficult to handle than in Spit. in CFS 2. (obviously, there is no other way to experience the thrill of flying these babes than in a fly simulation game)

Fw-190 is so easy to stall in fly, that I kind got frustrated, whereas in Spit, its so easy to fly without place too mach concentration on stall problem.

FLYBOYJ · Apr 22, 2005

The sim may not be too far off. This subject was brought up before. Because of the Spits elliptical wing, it going to have better stall characteristics. The stall will occur at the wingtip and pronounce itself through of the wing to the wing root. The pilot will feel this happening. I would believe that a 190 may not have this pronounced characteristic and the stall may be a bit more abrupt and unforgiving.

Sometimes sim games cold be quite accurate. In my fav "Mig Alley" the F-86 will drop a wing if you get too slow during the landing flare. I did maintenance and "crewed" an F-86 owned by a fellow named Al Hansen. When I showed him the game, he said his bird did the same thing!

Chiron · Apr 22, 2005

Since Fw-190 had such "serious" flaw in their plane, did German engineers address in their later design?

And how about German pilots, who do they counter the stall problem when they try to dogight or dodge Spits?

I meant when I try to intercept a Spit, because of stall problem, I counld not even follow a Spit.

FLYBOYJ · Apr 22, 2005

I don't think you could this a design problem, remember, fighters are designed to be inherently unstable. Are you trying to turn with the spit and if so how fast are you going? Try putting your flaps down then turning, let me know what happens!

evangilder · Apr 22, 2005

One thing that flight sims cannot reproduce is the feel of the airplane. Like FBJ said, there is a shudder that warns you of the impending stall. Yo can't replicate that with a flight sim.

FLYBOYJ · Apr 22, 2005

evangilder said:
One thing that flight sims cannot reproduce is the feel of the airplane. Like FBJ said, there is a shudder that warns you of the impending stall. Yo can't replicate that with a flight sim.

Yep - you hit the nail on the head. Sims are good for numbers (Bankangles at certain airspeeds, airspeeds at a certain climb rate etc.) but there's nothing like the feel on the yoke or stick that will tell you what you're aircraft is really doing as its going through the air.

Chiron · Apr 22, 2005

"fighters are designed to be inherently unstable. Are you trying to turn with the spit"

The game is not with me now, but thats interesting to know that fighters are designed unsatble.

So, a Fw-190 can not turn with Spit? so whats the proper tactic fight with Spit instead? which plane has upperhand in air combat?

FLYBOYJ · Apr 22, 2005

Fight in the "vertical" Up and down like a big "egg." Manage your energy when coming over the top and try to use diving speed to gain the advantage. If the Spit turns, pull up, come over the top, and try to desend with energy (airspeed) on his rear. If you slow down to the Spits airspeed, or loose positional advantage, go full power and leave the fight. This is a modified "high speed yo-yo"

See the pic and check out this site

http://www.planetstupid.com/ACM.htm

Chiron · Apr 22, 2005

http://www.combataircraft.com/tactics/high_speed_yoyo.asp

Like that? I tried before the yo-yo tactic, but whenever I pull up, I lost the sight of enemy, especially the Spit..........maybe i need more practice to master the timing....

FLYBOYJ · Apr 22, 2005

Make sure you got airspeed when entering the battle, the minute he turns, go straight up. Notice on those manuvers the attacking plane trying to get the advantage defeats the tight turn by going into the vertical. "Engery mangement." An old book call "Fighter Tactics and Strategy" has some good stuff as well, this guy explains a lot of the subjects we just discussed here between a Spit and a 190.

I edited my last post - check out this site: http://www.planetstupid.com/ACM.htm

Chiron · Apr 22, 2005

thnks, FLYBOYJ

i learned a lots today.

mosquitoman · Apr 22, 2005

evangilder said:
One thing that flight sims cannot reproduce is the feel of the airplane. Like FBJ said, there is a shudder that warns you of the impending stall. Yo can't replicate that with a flight sim.

A friend of a friend is a chopper pilot and apparently he can't fly the helicopters in the Microsoft Flight Simulator Series because it is all done through feeling, that is what is missing in a sim. And the fact that you can refly a mission if you get killed

FLYBOYJ · Apr 22, 2005

Chiron said:
thnks, FLYBOYJ

i learned a lots today.

Hey, no problem

DerAdlerIstGelandet · May 2, 2005

I would have to say that the best fighter of ETO would have to be a tie between the Fw-190D-9 and the P-38. The P-38 was greatly overshadowed by the P-51D but in my opinion she was better. Now both aircraft the Fw-190 and the P-38 had advantages and disadvantages but they were in my opionion atleast the best Axis and the best Allied fighter of the ETO.

Chiron said:
I dont know if its true in reality. I found Fw-190 is much difficult to handle than in Spit. in CFS 2. (obviously, there is no other way to experience the thrill of flying these babes than in a fly simulation game)

Actually a company in Germany called Flugwerk is rebuilding Fw-190A's, Me-109's, and P-51's. They are kit planes and in the email I recieved from them you can buy one for $500,000. It may not be the same as the real thing but it is the closest you can ever get. I know I would love to buy one!

Most all of the common interest is drawn upon the FW 190 project which Flug Werk started in June 1996. The first short flight was done on July 22nd '04 and we have made further on a row of very successful test flights.

As is natural with recreating such a complex aircraft, a few things needed fine-tuning, balancing and more investigation. To an extent of more than 95% we have achieved all of our design-goals without the need for any remedies.

Cooling of the engine and the engine oil was a major item on the list of verifying the FW 190 systems. In contrast to the original set-up, the oil-cooler is relocated from inside of the engine cowling to the new location under the upper gun-hood. This change will enhance oil- as well as engine-cooling and will not be discernible from the outside. The cooling fan is an operational unit which sports ground-adjustable blades. By changing the incidence of the fan-blades, the cooling system can receive a basic adjustment in order to cater for different climates in which the a/c will be flown and thus increase efficiency. The fan turns at the propeller rotational speed and is integrated into the spinner's back-plate.

Test-flights now proved the engine running too cool and that we need to incorporate a means to restrict the airflow through the oil-cooler in order to get the oil to its' most efficient temperature.

Also, due to the fact that the internal fueltanks are of welded sheet-metal design, their capacity has been greatly enlarged. The standard FW 190 A8/N holds two internal fuel-tanks, with a total amount of ~680 ltrs internal fuel.

The entire aircraft is about 450kg's lighter than the wartime counterpart, due to the omission of guns, ammunition, heavy radio equipment and the substitution of aluminum sheets for the steel armourplates.

The entire airframe is as close as 98% to the original, with some very minor deviations, where the use of more reliable ( and readily available ) systems dictated the fabrication of different brackets, to mount these items.

All twelve Flug Werk FW 190 A8/N do have original tail-wheel units with combat history. These units recently came out of a forgotten shelter ( !!!) and have been overhauled, including new manufactured inserts, allowing the use of modern seals, grinding and rechroming the dampeners' piston-rods. We have also been equipping the units with standard strut-valves, in order to assure serviceability all the world over.

Tyres and aluminum wheels are brand new and we make use of the Boeing 737-400 nose-gear tyre, which is affordable, readily available and the only tyre which will safely withstand the stress and strains of operating this aircraft from hard-covered runways. The bold original type tyre is not safe to operate.

Now here are some basic technical data covering the FW 190 A8/N :

Engine :
Asch 82 "T" / 14 cylinders, 42 ltrs, 1900 hp
direct fuel injected engine

Propeller:
MT-Propeller 3-blades, 330 cm diameter, constant speed, wooden composite blades

Wing:
wingspan :10.50 mtr
area : 18,30 mtr²

Fuselage:
length: 9,10 mtr
height : 3,95 mtr

Weights :
empty weight : ~2.900 kg
max. gross :~ 3.800 kg

Fuel Qty
Oil Qty
~ 880 ltr
~ 60 ltr

Max Speed @
20.000 ft
635 km/h

T/O speed
165 km/h, strictly three point attitude

Landing speed
185 km/h in landing configuration, three point attitude.

Cruise Speed @
2.300 rpm
585 km/h

Initial Climb rate
4000 ft/min

Service ceiling
practical (ATC)
20.000 ft

Range
990 km w/. VFR reserves

The FW 190 A8/N is sold exclusively as a kit. It is the only warbird, offered in this form, being able to be registered as an amateur-homebuilt kit-plane. This will mean:

"fewer restrictions than with an original warbird and full product support for the plane".

You don't have to buy basic items ( iE. Canopy, wingtips, rudders, elevators etc. ) on the overly expensive "collectors market"... Flug Werk provides an AOG-service, where standard items are stocked. Should a mishap down one of our clients, most all parts are available by express shipping to any part of the world.

The kit does not include the following items:

VHF COM
XPDR and Encoder
Instruments ( we will supply you a list for all instruments needed, to equipp your FW 190 A8/N. Including those that have to be bought new, so they will work with the engine and specialized systems of our kit-aircraft, such as fuel-quantity, oil-temp, fuel-pressure, oil-pressure, prop-pitch and engine-rpm sensors and indicators)
Oxygensystem
electrical wiring looms, connectors or electrical installation material
RLM paint, stencils etc.
...your "Elbow Grease"......

The fast-build kit currently costs Euro 555.000,-

The 300 ltr droptank is another option at Euro 7.000,-
The rack to mount the tank is an option at Euro 2.500,-

For further inquiries please contact us under colling@flugwerk.de

Don't bother asking about : fuel consumption, cost of maintenance etc...It is loud, it is fast, it is mean, but most of all it is fun and yes, it just has one seat !!!

The photos below show the splendid result of one of our clients in the USA.

It is the Fw 190 WNr. 173056 owned and restored by Mr. Don Hansen of Baton Rouge / Louisiana USA. In "real life" this particular Fw 190 served as "White 14 with I./JG 11…

Most of the major components have been delivered by Flug Werk, as has been the case with the kit for the substitution of the former BMW-801 D aero-engine with the more modern and reliable ASch 82 14 cylinder radial. Flug Werk supplied all necessary stress-calculations and cooling analyses for the exchange of the powerplants as well. Propeller and main landing gear system also are Flug Werk products to supplement this exciting project
http://www.flugwerk.com/new/fw190/fw190.shtm

plan_D · May 2, 2005

Force Feedback gives you the shudder before a stall. Playing Il-2 FB + AEP with a Sidewinder 2 (Force Feedback)...

...and in my opinion, to answer the question, is the pope really catholic?

Spitfire Mk.XVIII

KraziKanuK · May 2, 2005

plan_D said:
...and in my opinion, to answer the question, is the pope really catholic?

Spitfire Mk.XVIII

The first Mk XVIII was not delivered until May 28 1945. A wee bit late for the hostilities in Europe.

plan_D · May 2, 2005

Official hostilites, yes. There were still tiny groups of resistance. Much smaller than expected and Hitler hoped for but still...

Is Spitfire relly superior to FW-190?

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