Is Spitfire relly superior to FW-190?

[mosquitoman]

If the Spit got you into a turning battle, you'd be a goner- but then again I doubt anyone would be foolish enough to try to turn with a Spit

 

[KraziKanuK]

The M2 Browing .50 cal (12.7mm) delivered a 43.3 gram shell at 880 m/s, with a 750-850 rpm. That's against the MG131 13mm which delivered a 36 gram shell at 730 m/s at 900 rpm.

MG131 fires more but is slower and lighter.

The Hispano Mk.II 20mm delivered a 130 gram shell at 880 m/s, with a 600 rpm. Against a MG151/20 20mm delivering a 105 gram shell 725 m/s, at 700 - 750 rpm.

MG151/20 fires more but, again, is slower and lighter.

I'd still rather have the Spitfire armament although they were more equal in fighter vs. fighter than I previously thought.

The Dora's guns are closer to the centre line of the a/c. Convergence is not a big a problem as would be for the Spitfire with it guns ~7' from the a/c centreline.

 

[Soren]

If the Spit got you into a turning battle, you'd be a goner- but then again I doubt anyone would be foolish enough to try to turn with a Spit

Normally yes, but at or above 400mph the Fw-190D would be the winner of T&B fight. You don't want to get into a high speed fight with a Dora-9 !

 

[FLYBOYJ]

If the Spit got you into a turning battle, you'd be a goner- but then again I doubt anyone would be foolish enough to try to turn with a Spit

Normally yes, but at or above 400mph the Fw-190D would be the winner of T&B fight. You don't want to get into a high speed fight with a Dora-9 !

Try banking either aircraft at or above 400 mph (especially at high "Gs") and I guarantee you won't be doing 400 mph for long! That's where I think the Spit could win.

 

[Soren]

If the Spit got you into a turning battle, you'd be a goner- but then again I doubt anyone would be foolish enough to try to turn with a Spit

Normally yes, but at or above 400mph the Fw-190D would be the winner of T&B fight. You don't want to get into a high speed fight with a Dora-9 !

Try banking either aircraft at or above 400 mph (especially at high "Gs") and I guarantee you won't be doing 400 mph for long! That's where I think the Spit could win.

No but long enough for the Dora to get vital hits on a running Spit !

Also with a 2000+HP engine you will be able to hold a 400mph turn for a pretty amount of time, the circle might not be the smallest but the rate of turn is immense !

 

[FLYBOYJ]

the circle might not be the smallest but the rate of turn is immense !

And that's where you're going to get in trouble!:

See the attached chart on maneuvering speed, then take note

the 190D9 had a wing-loading of about 46.3 lbs per Sq/ft

The Spit XIV had a wing-loading of 35 lb/sq. ft

The 190D had a stall speed clean of about 109 mph

The Spit XIV had a stall speed clean of about 87 mph

(If we use earlier spitfire models the disparity gets worse.)

At any given speed, the Spitfire will turn better and stall last and will give better stall warning with its elliptical wing

 

[Soren]

the circle might not be the smallest but the rate of turn is immense !

And that's where you're going to get in trouble!:

See the attached chart on maneuvering speed, then take note

the 190D9 had a wing-loading of about 46.3 lbs per Sq/ft

The Spit XIV had a wing-loading of 35 lb/sq. ft

The 190D had a stall speed clean of about 109 mph

The Spit XIV had a stall speed clean of about 87 mph

(If we use earlier spitfire models the disparity gets worse.)

At any given speed, the Spitfire will turn better and stall last and will give better stall warning with its elliptical wing

Hold it, hold it !!

The Spit's elevators are almost useless at 400mph and above, but the 190's are as light as a feather, and the same goes for the aileron controls.

Yes the 190 has a higher stall speed, and at speeds below 400mph the Spit XIV will definitely turn tighter, but were talking at 400mph or above.

The last thing you wanna do with a Dora-9 on your tail at 400mph, is to try and bleed speed, as the Dora's turn rate at that speed is immense !

 

[FLYBOYJ]

the circle might not be the smallest but the rate of turn is immense !

And that's where you're going to get in trouble!:

See the attached chart on maneuvering speed, then take note

the 190D9 had a wing-loading of about 46.3 lbs per Sq/ft

The Spit XIV had a wing-loading of 35 lb/sq. ft

The 190D had a stall speed clean of about 109 mph

The Spit XIV had a stall speed clean of about 87 mph

(If we use earlier spitfire models the disparity gets worse.)

At any given speed, the Spitfire will turn better and stall last and will give better stall warning with its elliptical wing

Hold it, hold it !!

The Spit's elevators are almost useless at 400mph and above, but the 190's are as light as a feather, and the same goes for the aileron controls.

Yes the 190 has a higher stall speed, and at speeds below 400mph the Spit XIV will definitely turn tighter, but were talking at 400mph or above.

The last thing you wanna do with a Dora-9 on your tail at 400mph, is to try and bleed speed, as the Dora's turn rate at that speed is immense !

From those numbers, not as immense as a Spitfire! That radius of Turn Vs. Velocity chart is universal, the only thing different is the stall speed. Just because you go faster and have power, it doesn't mean you're turning tighter. Rate of turn vs. radius - there is a great difference!

 

[Soren]

From those numbers, not as immense as a Spitfire!

Yes it is, it is alot more immense than the Spit's. By your logic the Jap. Zero would be turning tighter than any other fighter at 400mph aswell, but it certainly wouldnt !

The Spit can barely turn or roll at 400mph, as its elevators are too heavy. The Fw-190D9 doesnt have heavy elevators at all at that speed, neither has it got heavy ailerons at that speed.

That radius of Turn Vs. Velocity chart is universal, the only thing different is the stall speed. Just because you go faster and have power, it doesn't mean you're turning tighter. Rate of turn vs. radius - there is a great difference!

Rate-of-turn can be as beneficial as turn-radius, or even more beneficial. The Spit could offcourse slow down and turn smaller circles, but the Dora-9 could make bigger but faster circles without losing any considderable amount of speed in the process. And at the same time the Dora-9 had the energy advantage. It is a kind of stalemate.

Also the Fw-190D9's initial turn rate at all speeds is alot faster than the Spit's, wich can be very beneficial.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

From those numbers, not as immense as a Spitfire!

Yes it is, it is alot more immense than the Spit's. By your logic the Jap. Zero would be turning tighter than any other fighter at 400mph aswell, but it certainly wouldnt !

If it had the capability to overcome control "heaviness" as described below, in theory it would considering its wing loading.

The Spit can barely turn or roll at 400mph, as its elevators are too heavy. The Fw-190D9 doesnt have heavy elevators at all at that speed, neither has it got heavy ailerons at that speed.

The turn starts with aileron, bringing in the rudder and then elevators to maintain pitch attitude. If we're at 400 mph, I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that we're going to see 390 mph very quickly. Agreed, the D9 would have an advantage before the spit starts slowing down, but once it does, it goes back to the spit.

That radius of Turn Vs. Velocity chart is universal, the only thing different is the stall speed. Just because you go faster and have power, it doesn't mean you're turning tighter. Rate of turn vs. radius - there is a great difference!

Rate-of-turn can be as beneficial as turn-radius, or even more beneficial. The Spit could offcourse slow down and turn smaller circles, but the Dora-9 could make bigger but faster circles without losing any considderable amount of speed in the process. And at the same time the Dora-9 had the energy advantage. It is a kind of stalemate.

I think if you do the math in this equation, the Spit will wind up inside the Dora with a firing solution in hand!

Also the Fw-190D9's initial turn rate at all speeds is alot faster than the Spit's, wich can be very beneficial.

I'd like to see the number on that from each aircraft's flight manuals.

All in all while I agree the D9 is an excellent aircraft, I think trying to turn with a Spit at any speed is not a good thing because I believe you could get verily easily "suckered" into the Spits field of advantage. If I were in a D9, I'd keep my speed up and yo-yo or keep the fight on a vertical plane.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Sorry for my last post Soren, I reall botched that up

 

[Soren]

If it had the capability to overcome control "heaviness" as described below, in theory it would considering its wing loading.

But it didnt, and neither did the Spit. At 380mph the Spit and Dora-9 would be approx equal in turn rate, above that the Dora-9 begins to really have the advantage.

The Spit can barely turn or roll at 400mph, as its elevators are too heavy. The Fw-190D9 doesnt have heavy elevators at all at that speed, neither has it got heavy ailerons at that speed.

The turn starts with aileron, bringing in the rudder and then elevators to maintain pitch attitude.

Sorry, I really messed it up there !! I wasnt impliyng that no Aileron-defelection is necessary for initiating a turn or that the elevators initiated the turn alone (but the ailerons would get heavy aswell), the elevators were just the main problem as they would get REALLY stiff. And as you know, without elevators there will be no horizontal movement once the ailerons has brought the plane into banking position.

If we're at 400 mph, I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that we're going to see 390 mph very quickly.

Not if you don't bank to violently, and it is 380mph wich is the "Deadline" if so to speak.

Agreed, the D9 would have an advantage before the spit starts slowing down, but once it does, it goes back to the spit.

Definitely.

I think if you do the math in this equation, the Spit will wind up inside the Dora with a firing solution in hand!

Not at all, as the Spit would have to bleed speed to get inside the Dora's circle, and at the time it does the Dora is going much faster.

I'd like to see the number on that from each aircraft's flight manuals.

It is commonly known that fighters with higher wingloading will have a faster 'initial turnrate' through the first 45 degrees than one with lower wing loading, also the Dora-9 has a very long rear fuselage helping its rear control surfaces turn the plane better.

All in all while I agree the D9 is an excellent aircraft, I think trying to turn with a Spit at any speed is not a good thing because I believe you could get verily easily "suckered" into the Spits field of advantage.

I agree, however if you stay above or around 400mph, the Spit would be the sucker to try and follow, except if it has a height advantage. Below 400mph the Dora better not try to turn with a Spit, as when the speed bleeds off the Spit will be much more maneuverable in the Horizontal !

Sorry for my last post Soren, I reall botched that up.

No problem, did it myself when I forgot to mention the Ailerons, making you believe I ment only the elevators were needed for a plane to initiate a turn or roll

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Soren, it's a pleasure to do "business with you" I think are argument lies between 380 and 400 mph. At that point I think it might be in the hands of the pilots!

 

[Soren]

Soren, it's a pleasure to do "business with you"

It goes both ways FLYBOYJ !

I think are argument lies between 380 and 400 mph. At that point I think it might be in the hands of the pilots!

I agree. Fact is both planes were very equal, although they didnt share the exact same maneuvering qualities.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

you guys realise though how unlikely it is you'll be going into a dogfight and be staying at 400mph for very long??

 

[Soren]

you guys realise though how unlikely it is you'll be going into a dogfight and be staying at 400mph for very long??

That highly depends on the tactics being used. But in an good old classic dogfight, no, they wouldnt even be doing 400mph in the first place, as good old classic dogfights takes place at slow to moderate speeds. Good old classic dogfighting envolves max banking maneuvers, all of wich bleeds speed VERY fast.

 

[lesofprimus]

Or at a certain altitude?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

you guys realise though how unlikely it is you'll be going into a dogfight and be staying at 400mph for very long??

My point in the beginning of this discussion. The D9 pilot would want the fight to remain at high speed (over 400 mph), the Spit would want the fight well under 380, where its maneuverability can be exploited. If the D9 begins to maneuver his airspeed will bleed off, at what rate as compared to the Spit was Soren's and I discussion. Altitude would play a role as both aircraft will perform differently at different altitudes and again advantage/ disadvantages encountered and/or exploited.

In my experience, having the opportunity to participate in mock dogfights in jets, I have found entering the fight with lots of airspeed and fighting in the vertical was the way to go because instinctively we want to turn and stay in the horizontal plane (after all our aircraft basically fly horizontally). The thing to master was managing energy while zooming up and down in the "egg."

 

[lesofprimus]

I think that in any combat situation, whether its on the ground , in the air, or in space with X-Wings, managing energy is the #1 factor in winning any engagement...

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I think that in any combat situation, whether its on the ground , in the air, or in space with X-Wings, managing energy is the #1 factor in winning any engagement...

Bingo - Fighter Pilot 101!