mosquitoman
Master Sergeant
If the Spit got you into a turning battle, you'd be a goner- but then again I doubt anyone would be foolish enough to try to turn with a Spit
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plan_D said:The M2 Browing .50 cal (12.7mm) delivered a 43.3 gram shell at 880 m/s, with a 750-850 rpm. That's against the MG131 13mm which delivered a 36 gram shell at 730 m/s at 900 rpm.
MG131 fires more but is slower and lighter.
The Hispano Mk.II 20mm delivered a 130 gram shell at 880 m/s, with a 600 rpm. Against a MG151/20 20mm delivering a 105 gram shell 725 m/s, at 700 - 750 rpm.
MG151/20 fires more but, again, is slower and lighter.
I'd still rather have the Spitfire armament although they were more equal in fighter vs. fighter than I previously thought.
mosquitoman said:If the Spit got you into a turning battle, you'd be a goner- but then again I doubt anyone would be foolish enough to try to turn with a Spit
Soren said:mosquitoman said:If the Spit got you into a turning battle, you'd be a goner- but then again I doubt anyone would be foolish enough to try to turn with a Spit
Normally yes, but at or above 400mph the Fw-190D would be the winner of T&B fight. You don't want to get into a high speed fight with a Dora-9 !
FLYBOYJ said:Soren said:mosquitoman said:If the Spit got you into a turning battle, you'd be a goner- but then again I doubt anyone would be foolish enough to try to turn with a Spit
Normally yes, but at or above 400mph the Fw-190D would be the winner of T&B fight. You don't want to get into a high speed fight with a Dora-9 !
Try banking either aircraft at or above 400 mph (especially at high "Gs") and I guarantee you won't be doing 400 mph for long!That's where I think the Spit could win.
Soren said:the circle might not be the smallest but the rate of turn is immense !
FLYBOYJ said:Soren said:the circle might not be the smallest but the rate of turn is immense !
And that's where you're going to get in trouble!:
See the attached chart on maneuvering speed, then take note
the 190D9 had a wing-loading of about 46.3 lbs per Sq/ft
The Spit XIV had a wing-loading of 35 lb/sq. ft
The 190D had a stall speed clean of about 109 mph
The Spit XIV had a stall speed clean of about 87 mph
(If we use earlier spitfire models the disparity gets worse.)
At any given speed, the Spitfire will turn better and stall last and will give better stall warning with its elliptical wing
Soren said:FLYBOYJ said:Soren said:the circle might not be the smallest but the rate of turn is immense !
And that's where you're going to get in trouble!:
See the attached chart on maneuvering speed, then take note
the 190D9 had a wing-loading of about 46.3 lbs per Sq/ft
The Spit XIV had a wing-loading of 35 lb/sq. ft
The 190D had a stall speed clean of about 109 mph
The Spit XIV had a stall speed clean of about 87 mph
(If we use earlier spitfire models the disparity gets worse.)
At any given speed, the Spitfire will turn better and stall last and will give better stall warning with its elliptical wing
Hold it, hold it !!
The Spit's elevators are almost useless at 400mph and above, but the 190's are as light as a feather, and the same goes for the aileron controls.
Yes the 190 has a higher stall speed, and at speeds below 400mph the Spit XIV will definitely turn tighter, but were talking at 400mph or above.
The last thing you wanna do with a Dora-9 on your tail at 400mph, is to try and bleed speed, as the Dora's turn rate at that speed is immense !
FLYBOYJ said:From those numbers, not as immense as a Spitfire!
That radius of Turn Vs. Velocity chart is universal, the only thing different is the stall speed. Just because you go faster and have power, it doesn't mean you're turning tighter. Rate of turn vs. radius - there is a great difference!
Soren said:FLYBOYJ said:From those numbers, not as immense as a Spitfire!
Soren said:Yes it is, it is alot more immense than the Spit's. By your logic the Jap. Zero would be turning tighter than any other fighter at 400mph aswell, but it certainly wouldnt !If it had the capability to overcome control "heaviness" as described below, in theory it would considering its wing loading.
Soren said:The Spit can barely turn or roll at 400mph, as its elevators are too heavy. The Fw-190D9 doesnt have heavy elevators at all at that speed, neither has it got heavy ailerons at that speed.The turn starts with aileron, bringing in the rudder and then elevators to maintain pitch attitude. If we're at 400 mph, I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that we're going to see 390 mph very quickly. Agreed, the D9 would have an advantage before the spit starts slowing down, but once it does, it goes back to the spit.
That radius of Turn Vs. Velocity chart is universal, the only thing different is the stall speed. Just because you go faster and have power, it doesn't mean you're turning tighter. Rate of turn vs. radius - there is a great difference!
Soren said:Rate-of-turn can be as beneficial as turn-radius, or even more beneficial. The Spit could offcourse slow down and turn smaller circles, but the Dora-9 could make bigger but faster circles without losing any considderable amount of speed in the process. And at the same time the Dora-9 had the energy advantage. It is a kind of stalemate.I think if you do the math in this equation, the Spit will wind up inside the Dora with a firing solution in hand!
"Soren" said:Also the Fw-190D9's initial turn rate at all speeds is alot faster than the Spit's, wich can be very beneficial.
I'd like to see the number on that from each aircraft's flight manuals.
All in all while I agree the D9 is an excellent aircraft, I think trying to turn with a Spit at any speed is not a good thing because I believe you could get verily easily "suckered" into the Spits field of advantage. If I were in a D9, I'd keep my speed up and yo-yo or keep the fight on a vertical plane.
If it had the capability to overcome control "heaviness" as described below, in theory it would considering its wing loading.
Soren said:The Spit can barely turn or roll at 400mph, as its elevators are too heavy. The Fw-190D9 doesnt have heavy elevators at all at that speed, neither has it got heavy ailerons at that speed.
The turn starts with aileron, bringing in the rudder and then elevators to maintain pitch attitude.
If we're at 400 mph, I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that we're going to see 390 mph very quickly.
Agreed, the D9 would have an advantage before the spit starts slowing down, but once it does, it goes back to the spit.
I think if you do the math in this equation, the Spit will wind up inside the Dora with a firing solution in hand!
I'd like to see the number on that from each aircraft's flight manuals.
All in all while I agree the D9 is an excellent aircraft, I think trying to turn with a Spit at any speed is not a good thing because I believe you could get verily easily "suckered" into the Spits field of advantage.
Sorry for my last post Soren, I reall botched that up.
FLYBOYJ said:Soren, it's a pleasure to do "business with you"
FLYBOYJ said:I think are argument lies between 380 and 400 mph. At that point I think it might be in the hands of the pilots!
the lancaster kicks ass said:you guys realise though how unlikely it is you'll be going into a dogfight and be staying at 400mph for very long??
the lancaster kicks ass said:you guys realise though how unlikely it is you'll be going into a dogfight and be staying at 400mph for very long??
lesofprimus said:I think that in any combat situation, whether its on the ground , in the air, or in space with X-Wings, managing energy is the #1 factor in winning any engagement...