Again my friend stats dont prove anything, stats are just aproximations and paper can be burned.
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Soren said:The incidents where P-38's have outturned Zero's have been ones where the Zero pilot wasnt aware of the P-38's presence or whereabouts.
Lets not confuse claims with reality.Now that's where I beg to differ with you - Many of the people who flew with Bong, Mcguire, and Gerry Johnson (their wingmen and guys in their flight, even Charles Lindberg saw Tom McGuire do this) saw these guys do this on NUMEROUS occasions. There'a a book called "Peter 38" that documents alot of this this. Although the pilots who were able to do this were far and few, the REALITY is they did it and have CLAIMS to show for it!
DerAdlerIstGelandet said:Again my friend stats dont prove anything, stats are just aproximations and paper can be burned.
FLYBOYJ said:Now that's where I beg to differ with you - Many of the people who flew with Bong, Mcguire, and Gerry Johnson (their wingmen and guys in their flight, even Charles Lindberg saw Tom McGuire do this) saw these guys do this on NUMEROUS occasions. There'a a book called "Peter 38" that documents alot of this this. Although the pilots who were able to do this were far and few, the REALITY is they did it and have CLAIMS to show for it!
FLYBOYJ said:Does it matter? Bottom line, the Zero, Oscar or Tony attempted to turn during a dogfight. All of a sudden this P-38 manages to stay right on his butt, something thought to be impossible. And again, this wasn't on just one occasion by one pilot. Ironically these guys were all in the PTO where the heaviest concentration of P-38 were situated.
Soren said:FLYBOYJ said:Does it matter? Bottom line, the Zero, Oscar or Tony attempted to turn during a dogfight. All of a sudden this P-38 manages to stay right on his butt, something thought to be impossible. And again, this wasn't on just one occasion by one pilot. Ironically these guys were all in the PTO where the heaviest concentration of P-38 were situated.
Yes it does matter, who says the Zero pilots was aware of a P-38 on his tail ? And who says that the Zero pilots pulled back the stick with all his might ?
Bottom line is, who could possibly know what that Zero/Tony pilot was thinking or doing in his cockpit ? Maby he was thinking "That big bird will never follow even a slight turn of mine" so he gently and only slightly pulls back his stick to preserve energy. Who knows ?
Also as you stated " PTO where the heaviest concentration of P-38 were situated" wich adds to the odds of something like this happening to some of the P-38 pilots on rare occasions.
I can tell you one thing for sure, the Japs certainly didnt see the P-38 as a worthy opponent in a turnfight
I could agree with you in asmuch as who knew what either pilot was doing during these dogfights, but the fact remains, P-38 pilots perfoming these maneuvers did so on many occasions, sometimes the P-38 pilot scored and othertimes he didn't. The point made these guys did the impossible!
As far as the Japanese considering the P-38 not a worthy opponent in a turnfight, sure I agree, thats why most P-38 pilots didn't turn with the Zero and fought in the Vertical or yo-yo, as a result the P-38 ended us with a 10-to-1 kill ratio, and those numbers can hardly be disputed! 8)
Soren said:They certainly can't, although the kill rate is most likely quite blown up, but the ratio WAS high nonetheless.
Soren said:I could agree with you in asmuch as who knew what either pilot was doing during these dogfights, but the fact remains, P-38 pilots perfoming these maneuvers did so on many occasions, sometimes the P-38 pilot scored and othertimes he didn't. The point made these guys did the impossible!
Yes they certainly did the impossible !
Im sure that whenever ANY Zero pilot saw a P-38 he would think, "Well he won't try turning with me, thats for sure" but so this 'Special' P-38 pilot did, and he caught the Zero pilot with his pants down.
As far as the Japanese considering the P-38 not a worthy opponent in a turnfight, sure I agree, thats why most P-38 pilots didn't turn with the Zero and fought in the Vertical or yo-yo, as a result the P-38 ended us with a 10-to-1 kill ratio, and those numbers can hardly be disputed! 8)
They certainly can't, although the kill rate is most likely quite blown up, but the ratio WAS high nonetheless.
It was a high ratio, It was not recomended to turn with the Japanese fighters Especiale new pilots and earlier planes. Why fight at about equal level of performance when you have much more lopsided options available?
The P-38 did turn with a Zero (or anything else for that matter) as shown in many places. So it wasn't imposable it just took a good pilot. Here is another account:
http://www.kilroywashere.org/003-Pages/Tilley-John/03-Harm-Tilley-story.html
The Planes and Pilots of WWII has comments from Art Hieden who flew both P-38s and P-51s in the ETO.
The Book "Top Guns" by Matthew Brennan has some good accounts of P-38s in maneuvering situations.
As to the Japanese View of the P-38 " The P-38 boded ill for the future and destroyed the morale of the Zero pilot" Saburo Sakai Japanese ace. The rest of his statement can be found at 'P-38 Online'.
FLYBOYJ said:Soren said:They certainly can't, although the kill rate is most likely quite blown up, but the ratio WAS high nonetheless.
Ok, call it 6 to 1, I think you see what I'm saying
Glider said:The interesting question is, would it be enough if they met one of the Jap 2-3% pilots, as they would also know a trick ot two?
lesofprimus said:Does anyone here think that maybe 1 or 2 or even 10-12 pilots actually witnessed a P-38 turn inside of one of his comrades, and then went back to base and reported this information to the base Intel Officer???
Anyone think that a Japanese pilot could actually turn his head around (did they actually swivel their heads around in combat or look straight ahead?) while in an easy left hand turn to shake off a -38, and then realize, "Oh shiit, hes turning with me!!" and then yanks the stick back harder, and harder, and harder, while still looking over his shoulder watching the rounds rip into his wing root????
Its funny how people always seem to know what goes through 100% of the pilots minds in 100% of all the aerial engagements that happened in 100% of the War.......
Amazing actually....... I wonder if these brilliant individuals can read my mind right this very second............ I only freakin wish.
Glider said:FJ If its the 2-3% who could do the engine balancing turn then I bow to your experience in twins.
plan_D said:in a matter of seconds, he's flung his P-38 around like a whore and his guns are on the weak bitch in front of him.
plan_D said:Trying to turn inside a Zero wasn't often needed either, since it has been mentioned the P-38 had many other advantages over the Zero.
I imagine it only happened a few times when those 2-3% thought, "The best thing I can do is..." in a matter of seconds, he's flung his P-38 around like a whore and his guns are on the weak bitch in front of him.