Is Spitfire relly superior to FW-190?

[lesofprimus]

Seriously, who doesnt drop tanks when fighting an more manouverable foe at low altitude......

My grandfather had told me on numerous occasions that the training he recieved prior to combatting the Corsair was a joke, and he was not at 75% capability when he flew his first operational combat sortie...

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Remember MaGuire was stupid that day, which is always fatal in combat.

wmaxt

Or Greedy or Both

 

[Glider]

FJ I feel as if I am going to regret asking this, but what did Tom Mcgurie do on his last mission?
Everyone else seems to know but me

 

[FLYBOYJ]

FJ I feel as if I am going to regret asking this, but what did Tom Mcgurie do on his last mission?
Everyone else seems to know but me

Hey no problem....

Jan 45' his flight got jumped by 2 Oscars, One of them was claimed to be the top Japanese Ace at the time Shoichi Sugita. McGuire whipped his P-38 around to save his #4, didn't punch off his drop tanks, stalled and spun into the ground. Some say it was an act of bravery, others say it was his blind obsession to pass Dick Bong's score of 40 kills (McGuire had 38 and was always obsessed about surpassing Bong's score). Either way, he was a hero and remarkable pilot in my book!

 

[lesofprimus]

FBJ.... All of the above..........

Of all the World War II aces, Thomas B. McGuire, Jr. stands out of the crowd for one reason: he openly lusted for the fame that would come with being a leading ace, and thereby the best pilot. In the American and British air forces, there is a tradition of modesty regarding this goal. No one will ever accuse a man like Chuck Yeager of lack of ego, but it is kept in public check behind an "aw shucks, I was just doin' the job" attitude. McGuire's lust for fame and glory would make him America's Number Two ace of all time, with 38 victories behind the 40 of his great rival, Richard I. Bong, but it would also insure he could never become Number One.

There are diffferent stories regarding this.........

Leading a flight of 4, he spotted a lone "Zero" low over the jungle of Negros Island. He had always preached never to get low, slow and heavy with the P-38, but this time he didn't let go his drop tanks. He saw the "Zero" as an easy kill, and with it and one more he would tie Bong. He made the fatal decision to keep his tanks, make the bounce, and continue the hunt.

Unfortunately for McGuire, the pilot he attacked was NAP 1/c Soichi Sugita, at that time the top-scoring surviving IJN ace with 80-odd kills scored over Rabaul, a master at the controls of a "Zero". In the ensuing fight, Sugita managed to shoot down one of McGuire's wingmen, and severely damage the other two. He then went after McGuire. Low over the jungle, heavy with fuel, McGuire stalled out trying to get away from Sugita and crashed to his death, a pointed example of the dark side of the lust for fame and glory.

OR...............

On January 7th, 1945, McGuire borrowed Fred Champlin's and Hal Grey's aircraft #112 in order to lead a fighter sweep of four P-38s over the Japanese airstrip of Fabrica on Negros Island in the Philippines. Flying in difficult weather, the P-38s finally broke through a cloud barrier at about 1,700 feet over the enemy airstrip and discovered a Nakajima Ki-43 Oscar returning to the field at an extremely low altitude. McGuire dove to meet the foe, and the enemy immediately turned toward the P-38s. The fight was on. The Lightnings were still burdened with fuel tanks that McGuire was reluctant to drop since he had hoped to continue on patrol after this engagement. Unknown to McGuire, a Nakajima KI-84 "Frank" from a nearby airstrip had entered the fight. The situation turned bad quickly. Trying to clear Capt. Edwin R. Weaver's tail, McGuire entered a tight turn at the limits of the P-38's capabilities, and crashed. McGuire's extraordinary career as a fighter pilot ended while in aerial combat over Negros Island in the Philippines. He was only twenty-five years old.

Because of his inspiring leadership and peerless achievements, in 1945 Major McGuire received a posthumous Congressional Medal of Honor for his final mission and for the missions of December 25-26th, 1944. His final victory total of 38 makes him the second leading Ace in Air Force history.

Not only was McGuire a prolific fighter pilot, he also authored the book on combat tactics in the Pacific that was adopted by the Army Air Corps. This gave the U.S. airmen the advantage needed to successfully accomplish the difficult task of defeating the Japanese with a minimal loss of American planes and lives.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

GREAT STUFF LES - YO DA MAN!

 

[lesofprimus]

Dude u crack me up............

 

[Glider]

FJ and Les, thanks to you both, much appreciated.

 

[lesofprimus]

Np, copy and paste.....

 

[FLYBOYJ]

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Again my friend stats dont prove anything, stats are just aproximations and paper can be burned.

There are no miracles in aerodynamics

Certainly not but you and a lot of people seem to think that what they read in a book or on a piece of paper is the only truth. As someone who works and flies aircraft I know this is not the truth.

 

[Soren]

Again my friend stats dont prove anything, stats are just aproximations and paper can be burned.

There are no miracles in aerodynamics

Certainly not but you and a lot of people seem to think that what they read in a book or on a piece of paper is the only truth. As someone who works and flies aircraft I know this is not the truth.

I fly occasionally myself, and I havent found that the basic aerodynamic facts are wrong. What aerodynamic facts have you come across that you experienced were wrong ?

Wingloading coupled with airfoil data can usually tell us all about a plane's maneuverability that we need to know to make an assessment on how maneuverable it is. Offcourse there are many other factors wich need to be taken into considderation if we need the 'exact' numbers on its maneuverability.

A plane with a wing loading of 290 kg/sq.m. will 'not' turn tightly, simple as that. You can also go ahead and aquire the P-38's stall speed data, and it will tell you the same story.

I will however not deny that there were some incidents where P-38's have outturned Zero's, but these were all incidents where the Zero pilots were caught off guard.

 

[lesofprimus]

I will however not deny that there were some incidents where P-38's have outturned Zero's, but these were all incidents where the Zero pilots were caught off guard.

They also could have been rookies who didnt know the capabilities of their own craft..... Or, the could have been really crappy pilots....... Not all Japanese pilots flew like The Devil of Rabaul......

Ever heard of pilots who take their plane into such a dive that their rivets come loose and pieces start breaking off, as their speed approaches 600 MPH, but mysteriosly pull out, while some simply make a crater in the earth???

On paper, it says pulling out of a 80 degree dive at 500+ MPH is impossible........ But some did it..........

Why??? Pilot skill and ability to quickly asses the situation and find the right procedure to rectify the problem, in the shortest period of time.....

 

[Glider]

As you may have guessed from the name I use, most of my flying experience has been gliding. I am pretty sure that I have spent that time in an aircraft that has far and away the lightest wingloading of almost any powered plane. Gliders are also very slippery and you would be suprised how fast I accelerate in a dive without an engine, I once kept up with a Yak 11 in the early stages.
I can assure you that my rate of roll is massively less than any powered aircraft you care to mention. However, once in a turn I defy anyone to stick with me but getting there is another matter. So do I count as being manoeverable. I would say no but if you go by turn rate and radius you may say yes. Its a balance.
I am aware that I am not comparing like with like but don't go by W/L and Airofoil. There are loads of things to take into account.
A final plea. When comparing aircraft do it with pilots of equal ability. The P38 may be able to do things with an exceptional pilot but if against another exceptional pilot in a plane like the Zero he will and did come unstuck.
The vast majority of pilots in all airforces were average and/or inexperienced. If trying to do a manouver such as the turn in the P38 described before would kill an average pilot, then I don't think it should count as a comparison.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Again my friend stats dont prove anything, stats are just aproximations and paper can be burned.

There are no miracles in aerodynamics

Certainly not but you and a lot of people seem to think that what they read in a book or on a piece of paper is the only truth. As someone who works and flies aircraft I know this is not the truth.

I fly occasionally myself, and I havent found that the basic aerodynamic facts are wrong. What aerodynamic facts have you come across that you experienced were wrong ?

I am not talking about aerodynamics. The principles of aerodynamics apply to any aircraft. What I am talking about is the performance stats and how an aircraft compares based on performance.

I can assure you that my rate of roll is massively less than any powered aircraft you care to mention. However, once in a turn I defy anyone to stick with me but getting there is another matter. So do I count as being manoeverable. I would say no but if you go by turn rate and radius you may say yes. Its a balance.
I am aware that I am not comparing like with like but don't go by W/L and Airofoil. There are loads of things to take into account.
A final plea. When comparing aircraft do it with pilots of equal ability. The P38 may be able to do things with an exceptional pilot but if against another exceptional pilot in a plane like the Zero he will and did come unstuck.
The vast majority of pilots in all airforces were average and/or inexperienced. If trying to do a manouver such as the turn in the P38 described before would kill an average pilot, then I don't think it should count as a comparison.

Boy I can tell you, I was out doing an instrument flight the other and this little German airstrip about 20 minutes from my airfield was having a glider competition. We flew past a couple of gliders at about 5000ft. I was amazed at how those things would turn and whip through the sky. It was awesome!

 

[lesofprimus]

Thats the problem with these kind of discussions... Im always considering 2 opposing pilots of excellent pilot skills who know how to combat their aircraft in the most deadly of ways...

Most do not.......

Although, in many circumstances, there are Axis pilots with 80 kills that get shot down by a pilot with 25 combat hours and 3 kills.........

If trying to do a manouver such as the turn in the P38 described before would kill an average pilot, then I don't think it should count as a comparison.

I wouldnt go so far as to say kill... But the discussion was that the -38 could NEVER turn inside a Zero, which was just plain old WRONG information... And dont forget about the combat flaps that the later -38 model employed....

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

And that is what really matters, it all comes down to skill in most cases and a lot of luck!

 

[wmaxt]

Thats the problem with these kind of discussions... Im always considering 2 opposing pilots of excellent pilot skills who know how to combat their aircraft in the most deadly of ways...

Most do not.......

Although, in many circumstances, there are Axis pilots with 80 kills that get shot down by a pilot with 25 combat hours and 3 kills.........

If trying to do a manouver such as the turn in the P38 described before would kill an average pilot, then I don't think it should count as a comparison.

I wouldnt go so far as to say kill... But the discussion was that the -38 could NEVER turn inside a Zero, which was just plain old WRONG information... And dont forget about the combat flaps that the later -38 model employed....

Don't forget the dive flaps, a truly exceptional stall capabilities, differential throttle and power ailerons. When the speed got really low a "clover leaf" turn was used with a stall/recovery tactic that would cut the corner and allow the P-38 to cut inside anything at speeds that could get below 90mph according to several sources.

Another thing not mentioned much is the ability of the P-38 to turn equaly well in either direction at any speed/throttle setting with no torque effect.

The P-38 was great in the verticle too.

As for discussing experianced pilots over inexperianced pilots: while it's true that a pilot of 25hrs sometimes shot down more experianced pilots, much more often it was the 1-20hr pilot that got shot down. In the MTO the basic assumption was if you made 6 missions you would usualy complete the tour.

wmaxt

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

It maneuvered great all around, with the right pilot as Flyboy will say.

 

[Soren]

I will however not deny that there were some incidents where P-38's have outturned Zero's, but these were all incidents where the Zero pilots were caught off guard.

They also could have been rookies who didnt know the capabilities of their own craft..... Or, the could have been really crappy pilots....... Not all Japanese pilots flew like The Devil of Rabaul......

.....

Agreed.