CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
An extremely good point Alejandro. This point added to the slightly better turn of the Ki 100
is exactly why the Japanese pilots preferred it over the Ki 84....IMHO.
Jack vs. Tojo - Which was better? Why?
- Thread starter Conslaw
- Start date
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is exactly why the Japanese pilots preferred it over the Ki 84....IMHO.
I've done some thinking and based on posts further down, I've revised the following
1. Ki-44 against
2. J2M against
1. Ki-44 against
- P-38F: It was the early P-38 variants and was available in 1942
- P-40D/E: They were available early on in the war
- F4U-1: Early variants were available as of the last few days of December 1942
- F6F-3: Available in 1943
2. J2M against
- Tempest II: There were plans to use these for the Tiger-Force as escorts
- Spitfire IX/XVI: Not sure how many of those served in the Pacific, but they were great fighter planes
- P-63 Kingcobra
- P-47N Thunderbolt
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Shortround6
Major General
One might also try the the Ki-44 vs the P-40K, pr P-39K.
The Ki-44 with the Ha-109 engine began production in the fall of 1942.
The Ki-44 with the Ha-109 engine began production in the fall of 1942.
Greg Boeser
1st Sergeant
AVG Tomahawks and RAF Buffalos were facing Ki-44s in December '41 and January '42.
14th AF P-40Es and Ks were dealing with Ki-44s in spring and summer of '43.
After smacking Ki-27s and Ki-43s around, the Shoki came as a big surprise.
The 23rd FG even felt that P-51As were no match for the Ki-44.
When did the Jack have it's combat debut?
14th AF P-40Es and Ks were dealing with Ki-44s in spring and summer of '43.
After smacking Ki-27s and Ki-43s around, the Shoki came as a big surprise.
The 23rd FG even felt that P-51As were no match for the Ki-44.
When did the Jack have it's combat debut?
Shortround6
Major General
I don't know but the first service unit to get the JM2 didn't get them until Dec of 1943 and it was a home defence unit.
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
Ki-44s first combat was 15 January 1942 over Singapore with the Independent 47th Air Squadron.
The Raiden interred combat first over the Marianas in June 1944.
The Raiden interred combat first over the Marianas in June 1944.
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CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
What I was able to find from the 76th FS:
"Upon his return to Kweilin, veteran ace "Tex" Hill expressed doubt
about the P-51(A)s ability to fight the 'Tojo', stating, 'I don't think
we can beat these new Japs in the air'. Chennault was unfazed, however,
replying, 'Don't worry about it. Just hit them on the ground'."
On 1 December 1943 Tex Hill was flying with five other P-51A pilots. They
were escorting B-24s and were bounced by Ki 44s. Two of the P-51As
were shot down without loss to the Shokis. This was just an isolated
incident. But, the Ki 44-II could out climb, out roll, out accelerate and
possibly outturn the P-51A. The Mustang was faster and could out
dive the Ki-44, but the Ki-44 did dive very well also.
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Greg Boeser
1st Sergeant
Yeah, I've read Molesworth's Sharks Over China.
Glider
Captain
Few would deny that the Ki44 is one of those often overlooked aircraft of WW2. Had the Japanese switched Ki44 production for Ki43 life wold have been far more difficult for the Allies.
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
Hi Greg,
My information, in part, comes from "Ki-44 'Tojo' Aces of World War 2". Osprey Aircaft
of the Aces 100. Some information comes from Air Enthusiast July 1972 Vol.3 No.1. And
some came from www.yarchive.net.
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
From http://www.yarchive.net/mil/ki-43.html
"Not to be overlooked is the Ki-44, the performance of which was more or less comparable
to the Fw 190A series. but with a faster rate of climb." "The P-40 was simply outclassed by
it, and had the Japanese Army pushed Ki-44 units into New Guinea in 1942, it would definity
been bad..."
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There is no comparative fly offs of Allied vs Ki-44 and J2M like they did for Zero. I think the J2M is a much more advanced and superior performer, and has 2-4x20mm as standard, where the Ki-44 had 4x12.7mm as standard.
The little I've found from the Japanese side is that they didn't consider the J2M able to defend itself in a dogfight (one reason the N1K-J was given production preference over the J2M). Also the Ki-44 was not considered a good plane by most Japanese as it turned poorly compared to Ki-43 and Ki-61, and it was a handful to land for new pilots.
The little I've found from the Japanese side is that they didn't consider the J2M able to defend itself in a dogfight (one reason the N1K-J was given production preference over the J2M). Also the Ki-44 was not considered a good plane by most Japanese as it turned poorly compared to Ki-43 and Ki-61, and it was a handful to land for new pilots.
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
T.A.I.C. Tojo 2 report 155A dated March 1945. Revised from the December 1944
report.
( T.A.I.C. Jack 11 report 105A dated December 1944 )
Altitude / Speed / Climb / Time to height
Meters / MPH / FPM / Minutes to altitude
S.L.........335/4140/----..(350/4670/----
-1,000..347/4200/--.7..(364/4670/--.6
-2,000..361/3950/-1.7..(379/4300/-1.3
-3,000..361/3500/-2.7..(379/3950/-2.3
-4,000..368/3490/-3.65(388/4060/-3.0
-5,000..380/3300/-4.7..(403/3750/-4.2
-6,000..380/2765/-5.8..(402/3280/-5.2
-7,000..373/2240/-7.3..(397/2750/-6.8
-8,000..360/1715/-8.9..(388/2170/-8.2
-9,000..345/1190/11.5..(377/1700/-9.6
10,000..322/-665/N.G...(363/1050/11.8-12.0
11,000..260/-140/N.G...(340/-680/N.G.
Engines: Nakajima type 2 1,570 hp./5,000 ft. (Mitsubishi Kasei 23 1,940 hp./4,400 ft.)
Combat Weights: 6,100 lb. (7,080 lb.)
Service Ceilings: 36,350 ft. (39.600 ft.)
Wing Loading: 37.78 (32.805) lb./sq. ft.
Power Loading: 3.885 (3.649) lb./hp.
Armament: 2 x 7.7 mm/500 rpg. or 2 x 12.7 mm/250 rpg. + 2 x 12.7 mm/ 250 rpg.
( 2 x 7.7 mm/550 rpg. or 2 x 20 mm/100 rpg. + 2 x 20 mm/100rpg.)
I have a work up on all the other aircraft mentioned previously, F4U-1, Buffalo, P-51D &
the rest, but that is not what the title of this thread is calling for.
Jeff
report.
( T.A.I.C. Jack 11 report 105A dated December 1944 )
Altitude / Speed / Climb / Time to height
Meters / MPH / FPM / Minutes to altitude
S.L.........335/4140/----..(350/4670/----
-1,000..347/4200/--.7..(364/4670/--.6
-2,000..361/3950/-1.7..(379/4300/-1.3
-3,000..361/3500/-2.7..(379/3950/-2.3
-4,000..368/3490/-3.65(388/4060/-3.0
-5,000..380/3300/-4.7..(403/3750/-4.2
-6,000..380/2765/-5.8..(402/3280/-5.2
-7,000..373/2240/-7.3..(397/2750/-6.8
-8,000..360/1715/-8.9..(388/2170/-8.2
-9,000..345/1190/11.5..(377/1700/-9.6
10,000..322/-665/N.G...(363/1050/11.8-12.0
11,000..260/-140/N.G...(340/-680/N.G.
Engines: Nakajima type 2 1,570 hp./5,000 ft. (Mitsubishi Kasei 23 1,940 hp./4,400 ft.)
Combat Weights: 6,100 lb. (7,080 lb.)
Service Ceilings: 36,350 ft. (39.600 ft.)
Wing Loading: 37.78 (32.805) lb./sq. ft.
Power Loading: 3.885 (3.649) lb./hp.
Armament: 2 x 7.7 mm/500 rpg. or 2 x 12.7 mm/250 rpg. + 2 x 12.7 mm/ 250 rpg.
( 2 x 7.7 mm/550 rpg. or 2 x 20 mm/100 rpg. + 2 x 20 mm/100rpg.)
I have a work up on all the other aircraft mentioned previously, F4U-1, Buffalo, P-51D &
the rest, but that is not what the title of this thread is calling for.
Jeff
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CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
Note: The Ki 44-III prototype powered by a Nakajima Ha-145 was
completed in June 1943 with an increased wing area of 204.52 sq.
ft. and a larger tail. This version was designed to carry four 20 mm
cannon or 2 20 mm cannon and 2 37 mm cannon. The combat
weight of the prototype was 5,357 lb. and the increased wing
area would give it a wing loading of 26.19 lb./sq. ft. The power
loading of the 2,000 hp. Ha-145 would have placed it at 2.678 lb./ hp.
That is the best power to weight ratio of any WW2 fighter I have ever
read about. Superlative acceleration and climbing ability. Makes
one wonder why....?
completed in June 1943 with an increased wing area of 204.52 sq.
ft. and a larger tail. This version was designed to carry four 20 mm
cannon or 2 20 mm cannon and 2 37 mm cannon. The combat
weight of the prototype was 5,357 lb. and the increased wing
area would give it a wing loading of 26.19 lb./sq. ft. The power
loading of the 2,000 hp. Ha-145 would have placed it at 2.678 lb./ hp.
That is the best power to weight ratio of any WW2 fighter I have ever
read about. Superlative acceleration and climbing ability. Makes
one wonder why....?
Works great....when it works!
- Thread starter
- #36
Conslaw
Senior Airman
I'm wondering if development of the Ki-44 was stunted because they IJA knew they wouldn't have a steady stream of high powered engines to put in them.
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
J2M3 m21 vs. P-47N.
The following quote is from page 53 of Erik Pilawskii's 'Fighter Aircraft
Performance of WW2'.
" The J2M3 was remarkable for its tremendous flying horsepower, possessing
what was likely the most formidable power loading of any aircraft in the Pacific
war. Meanwhile, the P-47N model was a longer ranged development of the
P-47D, complete with larger wings and increased tankage. Against the 'Jack',
the Thunderbolt would have to rely on its modest speed advantage*, being
inferior to the J2M in every other performance characteristic. With equal pilots
at the controls this would not have been enough, and it is hard to see past a
victory for the J2M3 under normal circumstances."
The normal power loading for the Model 21 was about 3.65 lb./hp. which was
very good compared to the '47N's 5.64 lb./hp.
P-47N (J2M3 with 92 octane and smooth running engine.)
432 (402) mph/6,000 m.
444 (397) mph/7,000 m.
456 (388) mph/8,000 m.
463 (377) mph/9,000 m.
467 (363) mph/10,000 m.
*Modest speed advantage?
The following quote is from page 53 of Erik Pilawskii's 'Fighter Aircraft
Performance of WW2'.
" The J2M3 was remarkable for its tremendous flying horsepower, possessing
what was likely the most formidable power loading of any aircraft in the Pacific
war. Meanwhile, the P-47N model was a longer ranged development of the
P-47D, complete with larger wings and increased tankage. Against the 'Jack',
the Thunderbolt would have to rely on its modest speed advantage*, being
inferior to the J2M in every other performance characteristic. With equal pilots
at the controls this would not have been enough, and it is hard to see past a
victory for the J2M3 under normal circumstances."
The normal power loading for the Model 21 was about 3.65 lb./hp. which was
very good compared to the '47N's 5.64 lb./hp.
P-47N (J2M3 with 92 octane and smooth running engine.)
432 (402) mph/6,000 m.
444 (397) mph/7,000 m.
456 (388) mph/8,000 m.
463 (377) mph/9,000 m.
467 (363) mph/10,000 m.
*Modest speed advantage?
J2M3 m21 vs. P-47N.
The following quote is from page 53 of Erik Pilawskii's 'Fighter Aircraft
Performance of WW2'.
" The J2M3 was remarkable for its tremendous flying horsepower, possessing
what was likely the most formidable power loading of any aircraft in the Pacific
war. Meanwhile, the P-47N model was a longer ranged development of the
P-47D, complete with larger wings and increased tankage. Against the 'Jack',
the Thunderbolt would have to rely on its modest speed advantage*, being
inferior to the J2M in every other performance characteristic. With equal pilots
at the controls this would not have been enough, and it is hard to see past a
victory for the J2M3 under normal circumstances."
The normal power loading for the Model 21 was about 3.65 lb./hp. which was
very good compared to the '47N's 5.64 lb./hp.
P-47N (J2M3 with 92 octane and smooth running engine.)
432 (402) mph/6,000 m.
444 (397) mph/7,000 m.
456 (388) mph/8,000 m.
463 (377) mph/9,000 m.
467 (363) mph/10,000 m.
*Modest speed advantage?
Concur on the modest part. Not taken into consideration is the pilot product on the stick and rudders and their training time / experience. It would be interesting to see a quarter by quarter break out by country for the war years, with pilot hours and type (fighter, trainer, bomber, transport). It would I think show tremendous declines on the Axis side, or a big fall from the beginning to end.
Cheers,
Biff
The super high performance quoted for late war US planes like P-47N and P-51H are using 80-90" of boost! I am not sure if 80-90" boost would be used by the fighter planes flying 850 mile over water from Iwo Jima to Japan. Using safer (rated) levels of boost the performance is still great, but is then almost the same as J2M using their own high boost over their own land.
FLIGHT TESTS OF THE P-47N AIRPLANE AAF NO. 44-88406
Speed at Military Power (53inch boost)
423mph at 38,000ft.
372mph at 15,000 ft.
P-47N sustained rate of climb is only around 1560-1740ft/min below 25,000ft at Military Power!
FLIGHT TESTS OF THE P-47N AIRPLANE AAF NO. 44-88406
Speed at Military Power (53inch boost)
423mph at 38,000ft.
372mph at 15,000 ft.
P-47N sustained rate of climb is only around 1560-1740ft/min below 25,000ft at Military Power!
In air combat, you get no points for second place. I'm sure they babied their engines (if you can call "lugging"* the engine in super lean mixture and high cylinder head temps "babying") in the long cruises to and from the target area, but when the bad guys show up you do what you've got to do. The R2800 was a phenomenally tough engine, and if the choice is between over boosting your engine and getting the other guy before he gets you, versus babying your engine and becoming a guest of the Emperor (or worse), well that's a no-brainer in my book.
Cheers,
Wes
*For you folks unfamiliar with American slang, "lugging" is forcing an engine to run "oversquare" (high Manifold Pressure and BMEP and low RPM - Lindberg's max range technique), kind of like driving up a hill in forth gear at low speed with pedal to the floor and your engine shuddering, pinging, and protesting. This, combined with a super lean mixture leads to high cylinder head temps and stresses that can be damaging to engines less robust than an R2800.
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