Japanese aircraft were behind in timing to Allied aircraft.
- Thread starter Shortround6
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Wild_Bill_Kelso
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,231
- Mar 18, 2022
Some folk have short memories!!Just a couple of weeks ago.
Japanese aircraft were behind in timing to Allied aircraft.
IIRC, 1 Sep 1943 was their first action off carriers. I don't know if they operated from land before then. Under Boyington, it was late 1943.ww2aircraft.net
I remember this very good post, but in what way did I contradict it?
Wild_Bill_Kelso
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,231
- Mar 18, 2022
The term is "teething troubles". You used a variant of it in your own post.
yes I know, but I don't find that accurate or precise enough. I wonder if the military has or had terms of art for this process. It's more than just minor technical issues IMO, training, fairly major adjustments, logistics, support etc. are all involved. Some planes never really get through it.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
hit reply by accident. FFS.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
I don't believe there's a more technical or precise term used by the military, at least none that are any more specific.
- Thread starter
- #346
Shortround6
Major General
Teething trouble seem to somewhat universal in the English language but it usually refers to technical or mechanical problems.
If you start lumping in some of the training or tactical issues the problems may devolve to finger pointing.
A crossover problem was one on the Whirlwind. It got a reputation for overheating on the ground or taxiing.
Remember that flaps were only a few years old. Gladiator was the first RAF fighter with flaps.
SOP was to keep the flaps retracted when not using them (like when taxiing across the field ) on any aircraft, this did help reduce the damage from crap kicked up the tires on grass/dirt airfields. Taxiing to the parking area with the flaps down could be a reason for having to buy a round of drinks at the bar.
Along comes the Whirlwind and the flaps were actually used as part of the radiator exhaust flap area. There was an upper flap but it wasn't big enough at taxi speed.
Getting the pilots to taxi with the flaps lowered is sometimes mentioned as one of the "teething" problems
Yes it was training.
Ineffective use of an aircraft in combat doesn't have much to do with the manufacturer or designer.
If you start lumping in some of the training or tactical issues the problems may devolve to finger pointing.
A crossover problem was one on the Whirlwind. It got a reputation for overheating on the ground or taxiing.
Remember that flaps were only a few years old. Gladiator was the first RAF fighter with flaps.
SOP was to keep the flaps retracted when not using them (like when taxiing across the field ) on any aircraft, this did help reduce the damage from crap kicked up the tires on grass/dirt airfields. Taxiing to the parking area with the flaps down could be a reason for having to buy a round of drinks at the bar.
Along comes the Whirlwind and the flaps were actually used as part of the radiator exhaust flap area. There was an upper flap but it wasn't big enough at taxi speed.
Getting the pilots to taxi with the flaps lowered is sometimes mentioned as one of the "teething" problems
Yes it was training.
Ineffective use of an aircraft in combat doesn't have much to do with the manufacturer or designer.
Wild_Bill_Kelso
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,231
- Mar 18, 2022
Teething trouble seem to somewhat universal in the English language but it usually refers to technical or mechanical problems.
If you start lumping in some of the training or tactical issues the problems may devolve to finger pointing.
A crossover problem was one on the Whirlwind. It got a reputation for overheating on the ground or taxiing.
Remember that flaps were only a few years old. Gladiator was the first RAF fighter with flaps.
SOP was to keep the flaps retracted when not using them (like when taxiing across the field ) on any aircraft, this did help reduce the damage from crap kicked up the tires on grass/dirt airfields. Taxiing to the parking area with the flaps down could be a reason for having to buy a round of drinks at the bar.
Along comes the Whirlwind and the flaps were actually used as part of the radiator exhaust flap area. There was an upper flap but it wasn't big enough at taxi speed.
Getting the pilots to taxi with the flaps lowered is sometimes mentioned as one of the "teething" problems
Yes it was training.
Ineffective use of an aircraft in combat doesn't have much to do with the manufacturer or designer.
yeah this is a good example of what I mean. Part of the 'work up' of a new aircraft (or a naval vessel) is adapting existing standards and people to the new 'thing'. There is also usually a lot of minor and sometimes also major technical and design changes that have to be done. That may go quickly or it may linger.
- Thread starter
- #348
Shortround6
Major General
This is one reason in this thread that I try to use date of operational squadron or use in combat.
The Japanese may be the greatest practitioners of a group of trials aircraft of around a dozen aircraft before ordering production to try to sort out some of this stuff.
The Japanese ordered either nothing or next to nothing "off the drawing board"
A few nations ordered off the drawing board and either got caught or had quite while between the first "production" plane and the 3 to 6th. They often had a score or more planes sitting partially built waiting for test results.
To Pick on the Americans we have the first flight of the F4U in May of 1940 (during the Battle for France) but the first operational/combat flights to place abut one month before the end of the Battle for Stalingrad.
Or the SB2C.
For most nations if you are committing the plane to combat you have most (but not all) of the problems sorted out.
The Japanese may be the greatest practitioners of a group of trials aircraft of around a dozen aircraft before ordering production to try to sort out some of this stuff.
The Japanese ordered either nothing or next to nothing "off the drawing board"
A few nations ordered off the drawing board and either got caught or had quite while between the first "production" plane and the 3 to 6th. They often had a score or more planes sitting partially built waiting for test results.
To Pick on the Americans we have the first flight of the F4U in May of 1940 (during the Battle for France) but the first operational/combat flights to place abut one month before the end of the Battle for Stalingrad.
Or the SB2C.
For most nations if you are committing the plane to combat you have most (but not all) of the problems sorted out.
Wild_Bill_Kelso
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,231
- Mar 18, 2022
The SB2C was ordered 'off the drawing board' and then the first thousand or so had to be reprocessed through the factory before they could go into service, and still had a ton of problems...
- Thread starter
- #350
Shortround6
Major General
So not a good plane to use "first fight" as an indicator of the state of the US aircraft technology in Dec 1940...............
Wild_Bill_Kelso
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,231
- Mar 18, 2022
No argument there.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
I haven't heard it used that way. I've only heard/read it used in regard to technical/mechanical issues.
Hi
Reference British aircraft carriers during and before the war:
Argus, Hermes, Eagle, Furious, Courageous, Glorious, Ark Royal, Illustrious, Formidable, Victorious, Indomitable, Indefatigable and Implacable, that's 13. Plus Unicorn and 5 Colossus Class commissioned before the end of the war (5 more during 1945 and early 1946). Six Majestic class launched but not completed before the end of the war. Six Escort carriers were constructed in British yards as were 19 Merchant Aircraft Carriers (MAC ships) for convoy protection. Two Eagle class fleet carriers were also under construction when the war ended, there completion delayed until the 1950s. I think that makes 44 carriers built in Britain of all types and used during WW2, with another 11 under construction at the wars end.
Carrier production was delayed during the early years of the war due to both air raids and other priorities like escort ships needed for convoy protection.
The French had the Bearn in service from 1927.
Mike
Wild_Bill_Kelso
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,231
- Mar 18, 2022
How many of these were equvialent to light or fleet carriers? How many saw service during the war? I am not sure MAC ships count as such.. didn't they only carry a couple of Swordfish? The Japanese also had seaplane tenders etc. but I didn't count those either.
From 1938-44 RN commissioned 7 fleet carriers that were fitted with a full complement of aircraft from 1940-44.
The IJN commissioned 6 fleet carriers from 1938-44 " ".
The IJN converted two merchant ships into light fleet carriers; Junyo and Hiyo.
The IJN put 4 CVLs into service from 1940 to 1944.
The IJN put 5 CVEs into service from 1940-44.
Of course the RN, RCN, RAN, etc also commissioned hundreds of Battleships, cruisers, fleet destroyers, and smaller ships into service from 1939 whose combined tonnage and numbers dwarfed similar tonnage and numbers from the IJN.
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Amendments to the above.
Colossus class - 5 completed in WW2 and 3 in early 1946. The remaining pair were completed as Aircraft Maintenance Ships in Feb & Oct 1945 for the BPF with various structures on deck making it impossible for them to operate as carriers. The first 4 ships completed Dec 1944 - April 1945 and reached Australia in late July/ early Aug and would have entered combat by the end of Aug had the War not ended. The delay was caused by the BPF not having a sufficient fleet train to support a second carrier group before then.
Unicorn - ordered as an aircraft maintenance ship, completed as a light carrier in 1943 but reverted to her intended role from the beginning of 1944 supporting the fleet carriers and aircraft in the Far East.
Majestic class - 5 launched in WW2 with the last, Hercules, on 22 Sept 1945.
Audacious class (Your Eagle class) - 3 under construction at end of WW2. The original Eagle was cancelled Dec 1945 before launch, leaving Eagle (ex Audacious) and Ark Royal to complete in 1951 and 1955 respectively.
Centaur class - 4 under construction at the end of WW2.
Escort carriers - 4 merchantmen requisitioned before launch for conversion plus two conversions (Audacity and Pretoria Castle) from existing ships. Plus of course 38 built in US yards.
MAC ships -10 new build (6 grain ships and 4 tankers) plus 9 conversions from pre-war built tankers.
While the MAC ships only had air groups of 3 or 4 Swordfish they operated very successfully between 1943 & 1945 protecting many convoys. The fact that they had few aircraft did not exclude them from being considered carriers at the time. They were the absolute bare minimum for an "escort carrier" type vessel.
The above does not include another 4 Centaurs and 4 Maltas planned from 1943 but never laid down.
France
As well as the Bearn, the French laid down the Joffre in Nov 1938. She was captured by the Germans while still on the slip but was later broken up. They also received the escort carrier Dixmude (ex HMS Biter) in April 1945.
Colossus class - 5 completed in WW2 and 3 in early 1946. The remaining pair were completed as Aircraft Maintenance Ships in Feb & Oct 1945 for the BPF with various structures on deck making it impossible for them to operate as carriers. The first 4 ships completed Dec 1944 - April 1945 and reached Australia in late July/ early Aug and would have entered combat by the end of Aug had the War not ended. The delay was caused by the BPF not having a sufficient fleet train to support a second carrier group before then.
Unicorn - ordered as an aircraft maintenance ship, completed as a light carrier in 1943 but reverted to her intended role from the beginning of 1944 supporting the fleet carriers and aircraft in the Far East.
Majestic class - 5 launched in WW2 with the last, Hercules, on 22 Sept 1945.
Audacious class (Your Eagle class) - 3 under construction at end of WW2. The original Eagle was cancelled Dec 1945 before launch, leaving Eagle (ex Audacious) and Ark Royal to complete in 1951 and 1955 respectively.
Centaur class - 4 under construction at the end of WW2.
Escort carriers - 4 merchantmen requisitioned before launch for conversion plus two conversions (Audacity and Pretoria Castle) from existing ships. Plus of course 38 built in US yards.
MAC ships -10 new build (6 grain ships and 4 tankers) plus 9 conversions from pre-war built tankers.
While the MAC ships only had air groups of 3 or 4 Swordfish they operated very successfully between 1943 & 1945 protecting many convoys. The fact that they had few aircraft did not exclude them from being considered carriers at the time. They were the absolute bare minimum for an "escort carrier" type vessel.
The above does not include another 4 Centaurs and 4 Maltas planned from 1943 but never laid down.
France
As well as the Bearn, the French laid down the Joffre in Nov 1938. She was captured by the Germans while still on the slip but was later broken up. They also received the escort carrier Dixmude (ex HMS Biter) in April 1945.
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Wild_Bill_Kelso
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,231
- Mar 18, 2022
Right but does anyone seriously propose that the RN could have taken on the IJN, even with it's entire fleet?
RN carriers with Swordfish and Gladiators, Fulmars and Sea-Hurricanes and (eventually) Seafires against IJN carriers with A6Ms, D3As and B5Ns - later D4Ys and B6Ns..?
RN battleships vs. ships like Yamato and Musashi?
RN surface fleets vs. Japanese torpedo armed destroyers, light and heavy cruisers etc.?
That might be a very interesting thread for the 'What if' section....
Going from the XF4U to F4F-1 could have been sped up considerably had it stuck with the original design of fuel tanks in the wing, and four MGs between Fuselage and Wing mounts.
even the XF6F would have been faster to service with the R-2600 than the change to 2800
And I'd say the SB2C never got out of the teething trouble stage
Wild_Bill_Kelso
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,231
- Mar 18, 2022
You may be right, but it seemed to have become a bit more reliable eventually, the problem was it had a shorter effective range than a Hellcat, while being generally less capable, and since most of the Japanese ships were gone at that point and most bombing was targeted toward ground targets, the fighters fitted as fighter bombers were better. If there had continued to be a Japanese naval threat they may have kept them a bit longer.
The biggest single problem IMO was that they made it too short because they wanted to fit two on each elevator, if I understand correctly. If they could have made it about 3 feet longer it probably would have fixed a lot of other issues, especially once they had the more powerful engines in place.
cherry blossom
Senior Airman
- 513
- Apr 23, 2007
Since we have such complete lists of RN aircraft carriers, I have tried to list their Japanese contemporaries or at least all those launched. I have 11 IJN fleet carriers completed (Akagi, Kaga, Soryu, Hiryu, Shokaku, Zuikaku, Taiho, Unryo, Amagi, Katsuragi and Shinano), 7 IJN small carriers designed as warships (Hosho, Ryuyo, Shoho, Zuiho, Ryuho, Chitose and Chiyoda), 7 IJN converted liners (Junyo, Hiyo, Taiyo, Chuyo, Unyo, Shinyo and Kaiyo) with Junyo and Hiyo converted from designs that envisaged the possibility of conversion and were rather useful ships and finally 5 IJA carriers completed (Akitsu-maru, Nigitsu-maru, Kumano-maru, Shimane-Maru and Yamashiro-Maru).
The IJN fleet carriers Kasagi, Aso, Ikoma and Ibuki were launched but never completed, mostly because building aircraft carriers did not seem useful after late 1944. There were also two incomplete but launched IJA carriers (Otakisan-maru and Chigusa-Maru).
The IJN fleet carriers Kasagi, Aso, Ikoma and Ibuki were launched but never completed, mostly because building aircraft carriers did not seem useful after late 1944. There were also two incomplete but launched IJA carriers (Otakisan-maru and Chigusa-Maru).
