Japanese logistics, purchase programs and war booty, reality and alternatives 1936-44 (1 Viewer)

tomo pauk · Friday at 12:06 PM

Similar to the German thread, with Japanese both starting and finishing one year later.

Granted, Japanese will have far less to capture in the sense of the finished products. They can make a better use of the stuff developed by Germany than it was historically the case, though. Japan still embarks on the conquest as per historically (ie. China, SE Asia, attack on PH and Philippines etc, but no attack on Soviet Union bar the historical clashes before 1942), and they actually get to capture the oil fields (contrary to what Germans did). They still need a lot more of fuel stuff than what they have had available, while the Japanese industry is not as well developed as German industry, and was a fraction of what the USA had - no great discoveries there.

Imperial Japanese are still what they are - cruel masters of the captured areas - to their detriment. Perhaps some toning down of the hostile stance was possible, but not by a great deal.

To start the ball rolling: a more substantial cooperation with Germany once the Anti-Comitern pact is signed in late 1936.

Zmauky · Friday at 1:03 PM

To begin with - cooperation between the army and the navy without duplicating development, the same calibers of weapons and so on.
For example, Daimler sold an aircraft engine license to the Army (Kawasaki) and the Navy (Aichi)!
Japan is the only nation whose military had aircraft carriers and whose navy had ground forces (and I don't mean the SNLF as marines).
We can say that Germany lost the race in the development of the atomic bomb because they had 5 ? independent and non-cooperating teams, but Japan had two parallel military forces that (mostly) did not cooperate.

tomo pauk · Friday at 2:40 PM

Zmauky said:
To begin with - cooperation between the army and the navy without duplicating development, the same calibers of weapons and so on.

Yes, a modicum of the cooperation will be needed. Not easily achieved, but every bit helps.

Air defenses:
- buy the licence for the 40mm Bofors (for both Army and Navy needs), don't bother with the 25mm AA gun from France
- the Japanese 20mm AA guns are just fine, Navy should have these in production for their needs
- seems like the 100 and 120-127mm guns were the best what Japan had wrt. the heavy AA guns, but these are unlikely to be manufactured en masse as needed, so something else is also needed, preferably the German 8.8cm, or even the Bofors 75mm AA gun that Japanese actually copied, if too late
- increased and early cooperation with Germany should've introduced the Japanese with the advantages of the gun-laying radar

Granted, having workable radars is an force-multiplier on it's own and for anyone using it, at least before the jamming is introduced.

tomo pauk · Friday at 6:06 PM

The suggestions about making the German fuel situation are also applicable for the Japanese. They (Japanese) were trying even more exotic fuel sources, like the oil from pine roots etc.
They were not lucky enough with finding the oil in Manchuria, where in 1959 the Chinese found a lot, and also missed the Liaohe oil field. Getting lucky in either of the two changes a lot of the dynamics of the Pacific war.

Japanese tanks used the air-cooled diesels, so they were probably getting as good mileage for their tanks as possible. Not that their tanks could've not used some upgrades, mind you.

tomo pauk · 2025-01-25T04:19:42-0500

Japanese bombers, realities and alternatives.
Excellent range, decent speed and defensive firepower, but too late with the protection for the crew and fuel, as well as with a meagre bomb load, and eventually not fast enough? Navy went with the G4M towards a bomber design that have had a fuselage sized for a transport, but for a bomber, it meant greater size, drag and weight. IMO, they will need to make something sized like the P1Y, with slim fuselage and small wing (area of 55 sqm vs. 78 sqm on the G4M), so it is not a slow bomber - when with same engines, the P1Y was some 30 mph faster than the G4M, and faster still with the Homares.

A stiff competition for the Navy's 2-engined bombers might've come from their 1-engined bombers if done right. Everyone and his brother knows that I'm a fan of the D4Y idea - a small and sleek 1-engined bomber. The idea went awry when it was about executing it, mostly due to the lack of protection for the crew and fuel tanks. The low production of the V12s was also not contributing, and the combat suitability (as a dive bomber) was not immediately there. So this time around, the protection is a must (also for he other Japanese aircraft), and the radial engine version has to be in the works in parallel (if not exclusively if Aichi is required to make only the radials, instead of both V12s and radials). The bomb load need to be rated up to a 800 kg bomb, even if that means removing the bomb bay doors, or making these bigger.

Army - instead of the Ki-45 and -46 being different and role-specific designs, I'd have the contest for a fast bomber, and make the winner en masse. Install the cameras in the recon version. Alternatively, an 1-engined fast bomber might've been a more affordable solution, and them make the recon and fighter/bomber versions.

z42 · 2025-01-25T09:34:20-0500

Yes, cooperation, particularly in procurement, between the army and the navy.
Pilot education program so you don't run out of competent pilots mid war.
Together with the above, scratch the Yamato class and build more Shokakus instead.
In the jungle fighting, mass deployment of SMG's needed. Something like the Aussie Owen gun. Adopt the German 9x19 instead of reinventing the wheel.
Wrt to fuel, given the huge expense of the German synthetic fuel program, and that Japan wasn't sitting on mountains of coal like the Germans, maybe forget about it. Instead put more effort into utilizing the DEI and Borneo oilfields. And make sure the tankers don't get sunk en route. Mass produce some kind of escort destroyers?
Make sure to have a pipeline of improved aircraft, so you're not left behind as much as the war progresses.

Shortround6 · 2025-01-25T09:35:26-0500

Japanese can use captured stuff where they found it. Moving it very far just ties up Japanese shipping.

Japanese cannot/should not, just try to adopt some German guns (like the MG 151 cannon).
Japanese need guns that are easy to make. Likewise ammo.

Yes the 25mm AA gun was a real waste of resources for what it gave them.
The Navy had a real problem, just about all of their ships (all of the small ones) were top heavy and were limited in the amount (weight) of AA guns they could hold.
They also fell into the trap that everybody else did thinking that a few small AA guns were sufficient. They did not climb out of the trap as early as some others did.

Japanese also didn't plan on protecting the ships carrying the spoils of war back to Japan. Or at least using more than WW I technology or numbers.

tomo pauk · 2025-01-25T10:21:31-0500

z42 said:
Yes, cooperation, particularly in procurement, between the army and the navy.

A number of the ammo types the two branches used, just between 7.7 and 37mm, was staggering. Three LMG ammo types (the 7.7mm were not interchangable), two HMG calibres, five (!) 'local' 20mm ammo types + the MG 151/20, three 30mm, three(?) 37mm. I've probably missed some.

IMO - both IJN and IJA should've adopt the Oerlikon L/FFL (the future Type 99 Mod 2) ASAP, as the main weapon for air fighting. Invest the effort to make it belt-fed, and speed it up. Decide what of the two powerful 20mm cartridges for the AAA needs is the better choice, and forget the other one.
One HMG type will suffice, so will a decent 30mm. Adopting any German automatic weapon is probably not worth it.
Army should not forget to specify cannons for their 1-engined fighters as early as possible.

German input might've come in handy with the Mine shells idea, but the main boon should've been, IMO wrt. the electronic systems; both the IJN and IJA will need to approach the radar technology more openly. Germans might find the simple non-mechanical fuse interesting.

z42 said:
Wrt to fuel, given the huge expense of the German synthetic fuel program, and that Japan wasn't sitting on mountains of coal like the Germans, maybe forget about it. Instead put more effort into utilizing the DEI and Borneo oilfields. And make sure the tankers don't get sunk en route. Mass produce some kind of escort destroyers?

Japanese will certainly need to up their escort game. Recalling that they are, after all, the island nation, and that UK have had bad problems with submarines not a long time ago. Any worth in having the blimps/air ships to help out?
Domestic fuel savings will still need to be made, and earlier, while taking the alternative fuels approach (different oils, coal, producer gas).

Shortround6 · 2025-01-25T11:25:55-0500

Japan has a real problem trying to fight the US or the British Commonwealth.
Japan produce around 25% (give or take 5% in any given year) the amount of steel that Germany did.
Japan doesn't have the steel needed for large industrial plants without shorting other programs, like ship construction, even cargo ships.
They don't have the steel needed for the shells for large AA gun batteries. Millions of AA shells .

There is also a difference between high grade steel and low grade steel.

German mine shell was not so much the idea, it was the ability to actually do it.
The Mine shell is not forged and/machined form solid stock. It is drawn much like a cartridge case from a disc or blank out of a strip.
A succession of stamps in hydraulic presses form the tube and enlongate it while forming the correct shape. There are several annealing steps to soften the steel in-between some of the steps because the steel would become work hardened form the drawing and there would be too many cracks, splits, tears in the tubes with a very high scrap rate. But the finished shell body has to be hard enough (strong enough) to stand up to being fired out of the gun and not collapsing in the bore under the pressure of firing or come apart due to centrifugal force upon exiting the barrel.
The Germans were world leaders in this stamping/drawing technology. One reason that they could make the MG 42 and the MP-44.
Getting the right alloy, using the right heat, using at times the proper lubrication and using the right heat treatment at the right times to give the desired finished products was a lot more important than a set of drawings.
Monitoring temperatures during such processes requires temperature gauges/sensors. The number of skilled craftsmen that judge things by 'eye' are very few.

Manufacturing techniques made large strides during the war in many nations. What they could do at the end was not what they could do during the war and what they could do in 1949-51 has very little to do with what they could do during the war.

tomo pauk · 2025-01-25T11:36:59-0500

Shortround6 said:
German mine shell was not so much the idea, it was the ability to actually do it.
The Mine shell is not forged and/machined form solid stock. It is drawn much like a cartridge case from a disc or blank out of a strip.

IIRC everyone was making the cartridge cases by the same fashion as noted there, at least from 1920s on.

Shortround6 said:
Japan has a real problem trying to fight the US or the British Commonwealth.
Japan produce around 25% (give or take 5% in any given year) the amount of steel that Germany did.
Japan doesn't have the steel needed for large industrial plants without shorting other programs, like ship construction, even cargo ships.
They don't have the steel needed for the shells for large AA gun batteries. Millions of AA shells .

They certainly have a very challenging job once they were set to the path of militarization and expansion. Meaning that the thread about them making some things differently has a lot of topics to cover

EwenS · 2025-01-25T11:53:21-0500

z42 said:
Yes, cooperation, particularly in procurement, between the army and the navy.

Pilot education program so you don't run out of competent pilots mid war.

Together with the above, scratch the Yamato class and build more Shokakus instead.

In the jungle fighting, mass deployment of SMG's needed. Something like the Aussie Owen gun. Adopt the German 9x19 instead of reinventing the wheel.

Wrt to fuel, given the huge expense of the German synthetic fuel program, and that Japan wasn't sitting on mountains of coal like the Germans, maybe forget about it. Instead put more effort into utilizing the DEI and Borneo oilfields. And make sure the tankers don't get sunk en route. Mass produce some kind of escort destroyers?

Make sure to have a pipeline of improved aircraft, so you're not left behind as much as the war progresses.

They did. Problem was they began too late.

Matsu and simplified Tachibana classes laid down from Aug 1943

Matsu-class destroyer - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

CH sub chasers

No.13-class submarine chaser - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Kaibokan escort ships

Kaibōkan - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

And the simplified Type C & D Kaibokan

Type C escort ship - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Type D escort ship - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Shortround6 · 2025-01-25T12:40:46-0500

tomo pauk said:
IIRC everyone was making the cartridge cases by the same fashion as noted there, at least from 1920s on.

Actually from brass around the 1870s (?).
And in copper from the 1850s-60s.
And steel showed up ???
Now we also have different problems with steel cartridge cases. Their job is to keep everything together while being carried around, getting stuffed in the chamber, sealing the breech and then getting extracted and thrown away. They often had trouble with that in the early years. Too soft or hard and and they cracked/split when fired and leaked gas back into the action, you also need the right balance of give and springiness. Cartridge has to expand slightly without cracking and splitting and spring back, at least somewhat, to original dimensions so you can extract the case from the chamber. Too soft and the case sticks in the chamber.

What the Germans figured out with the mine shell was how to get a high strength shell body that was both thin (high HE capacity) and strong (didn't buckle in the barrel) enough to stand up to the pressure acting the base of the shell trying to force the heavy nose section (fuse) to accelerate. AND to do it economically (low cost).
Maybe the British and Americans figured it out? But didn't have the needed hydraulic presses and annealing facilities that weren't doing anything else?

At times military requirements can be a real bitch. Like how many jams/case ruptures are acceptable per 1000 rounds fired.
Or how many failures of the shells per 10,000 rounds fired?
Changing the failure rate by even a fraction of 1% can be the difference between acceptance or failure.

Japanese Army accepted a failure rate in the 12.7mm ammo that would have been unacceptable to anybody else.
Having to install a 3mm half tube to protect the engine from HE bullets exploding as the left the barrel?
Might be an OK solution with a 12.7mm HE shell, if that fuse had been used in 20mm shell?

Shortround6 · 2025-01-25T12:46:52-0500

EwenS said:
They did. Problem was they began too late.

Not only just the types of ships.

They were way behind fitting sonar/asdic.
Depth charge numbers were low, fuses were basic (two depths ?)
Lack of escort tactics. A single escort is little more than an additional target.

tomo pauk · 2025-01-25T12:55:20-0500

Shortround6 said:
Actually from brass around the 1870s (?).
And in copper from the 1850s-60s.
And steel showed up ???

I'm not sure when the steel was 1st used for the casings, will need to look it up.

Shortround6 said:
What the Germans figured out with the mine shell was how to get a high strength shell body that was both thin (high HE capacity) and strong (didn't buckle in the barrel) enough to stand up to the pressure acting the base of the shell trying to force the heavy nose section (fuse) to accelerate. AND to do it economically (low cost).
Maybe the British and Americans figured it out? But didn't have the needed hydraulic presses and annealing facilities that weren't doing anything else?

Germany was packed up to the brim wrt. the machine tooling (their problem was having enough of the required raw materials and mapower to put that in the good use). I'm not sure how big a % of that was the tooling for making the drawn steel for the M-shells. Germans were probably keeping the eye on the steel as a material to use for the casing well before ww2, since they knew that brass will require them the materials they were lacking (copper, zinc).

Allies were probably satisfied with the manufacture of the shell bodies as-is, even if the drawn steel bodies might've offered some saving in material and tooling? Many times the NIH syndrome might stand in the way, but I can't pinpoint the actual stance towards the manufacture of the M-shells in the Allied lands. Plus, by the time the Allies became aware of the way the M-shell bodies are made, their machinery for shell making was already set up?

Shortround6 said:
Japanese Army accepted a failure rate in the 12.7mm ammo that would have been unacceptable to anybody else.
Having to install a 3mm half tube to protect the engine from HE bullets exploding as the left the barrel?
Might be an OK solution with a 12.7mm HE shell, if that fuse had been used in 20mm shell?

A reason that IJA moves to the Oerlikon cannon ASAP.

z42 · 2025-01-25T13:02:04-0500

Shortround6 said:
The Navy had a real problem, just about all of their ships (all of the small ones) were top heavy and were limited in the amount (weight) of AA guns they could hold.
They also fell into the trap that everybody else did thinking that a few small AA guns were sufficient. They did not climb out of the trap as early as some others did.

The IJN overloaded their ships to make up for getting the short end of the stick in the Washington treaty negotiations. There was also the 4th fleet incident in 1935 where they hit a storm and several ships suffered serious structural damage.

They would have needed to remove some main armament turrets, or something like that, on many ships in order to make room for more AA and radars.

z42 · 2025-01-25T13:15:01-0500

tomo pauk said:
A number of the ammo types the two branches used, just between 7.7 and 37mm, was staggering. Three LMG ammo types (the 7.7mm were not interchangable), two HMG calibres, five (!) 'local' 20mm ammo types + the MG 151/20, three 30mm, three(?) 37mm. I've probably missed some.

They also had the 6.5mm Arisaka, which they were in progress of replacing with the 7.7mm Arisaka as the main rifle cartridge.

IMO - both IJN and IJA should've adopt the Oerlikon L/FFL (the future Type 99 Mod 2) ASAP, as the main weapon for air fighting. Invest the effort to make it belt-fed, and speed it up.

What about the Ho-5 vs. the Type 99 Mod 2? Which one was "better"?

One HMG type will suffice, so will a decent 30mm. Adopting any German automatic weapon is probably not worth it.
Army should not forget to specify cannons for their 1-engined fighters as early as possible.

If you're in a pinch, do you even need a HMG? The sooner you go for an all-cannon armament for your fighters the better. Maybe(?) as a defensive gun on bombers?

Japanese will certainly need to up their escort game. Recalling that they are, after all, the island nation, and that UK have had bad problems with submarines not a long time ago. Any worth in having the blimps/air ships to help out?

I'm skeptical of blimps. They probably disappeared for a reason. Steal the Allied ASW playbook and build more of the H8K's, and then build escort carriers and equip them with some bombers obsolete for front-line service?

Domestic fuel savings will still need to be made, and earlier, while taking the alternative fuels approach (different oils, coal, producer gas).

My understanding is that Japan was very un-motorized, both the Army as well as civilian society at large. Petroleum production was almost entirely devoted to heavy fuel oil for ships, and aviation gasoline, with very little production of land vehicle fuel. Not sure how Japanese coal production was used, but I'd guess for steel production, coastal shipping, railways, and domestic heating. Maybe put civilians to work gathering firewood for those applications where that can substitute for coal?

yulzari · 2025-01-25T13:57:11-0500

tomo pauk said:
I'm not sure when the steel was 1st used for the casings, will need to look it up.

Swiss GP11 for the Schmidt Rubin M1889 12 round box magazine rifle and the mild steel jacket first developed in 1882.

tomo pauk · 2025-01-25T13:57:19-0500

z42 said:
What about the Ho-5 vs. the Type 99 Mod 2? Which one was "better"?

Ho-5 have had the higher RoF (by about 50%), and was sychronisable (Browning system).
Type 99 Mod 2 fired the much heavier shell, ~130 g vs. ~78g. Going after the sturdy US aircraft, the type 99 migth've been a better choice?
But the main advantage of the Oerlikon L/FFL was that it was available much earlier for anyone willing to pay licence fees (that Japanese did both for the Mod 1 - ie. the Oerlikon FFF - and Mod 2).

z42 said:
If you're in a pinch, do you even need a HMG? The sooner you go for an all-cannon armament for your fighters the better. Maybe(?) as a defensive gun on bombers?

Yes, the main role of an HMG might've been that of the defensive gun.

z42 said:
I'm skeptical of blimps. They probably disappeared for a reason. Steal the Allied ASW playbook and build more of the H8K's, and then build escort carriers and equip them with some bombers obsolete for front-line service?

Hard to disagree with that.

z42 said:
My understanding is that Japan was very un-motorized, both the Army as well as civilian society at large. Petroleum production was almost entirely devoted to heavy fuel oil for ships, and aviation gasoline, with very little production of land vehicle fuel. Not sure how Japanese coal production was used, but I'd guess for steel production, coastal shipping, railways, and domestic heating. Maybe put civilians to work gathering firewood for those applications where that can substitute for coal?

Whatever Japan intend to do wrt. the fuel alternatives, they need to do it ASAP and on a wide scale.
Here, under Government Reports, there is a lot to read about the Japanese efforts wrt. the POL.

tomo pauk · 2025-01-25T15:14:31-0500

z42 said:
Make sure to have a pipeline of improved aircraft, so you're not left behind as much as the war progresses.

To return to this a bit.
Japanese probably did an okay (but not very good) job wrt. having the next-gen types to replace the older types, with the carrier-borne fighters being an exception. And this is a big one, since the carrier aviation will be tackling the most powerful likely opponent - Americans. Any Japanese planner was aware that Americans will out-number them, it is just a question of time. So the naval fighters need to be top crop, and the nature of these is that 1-engined designs will be the ones that matter.
Being top crop usually means using the most powerful engine in series production. So there is no point in designing a fighter around a 800-900 HP engine when 1200-1400 HP engines are in the pipeline. More powerful engines allow for the good/great firepower while still retaining the good performance figures. Firepower, brought by performing fighters, is what will be killing the US bombers, from 1- and 2-engined types to the 4-engined types.

A lot of words to say: make the 'alt Zero' around the Kinsei, with Ha 41 as a plan B; next-gen fighters need to be designed around a 1500+ HP engine, with eye towards 2000 HP, and carrier-capability to be baked in from day one. Kawanishi high-performance floatplanes need to be axed, same for the Nakajima Saiun and Gekko, and same for the Raiden. Instead, the 3 companies need to make the next-gen fighter, the winner to be manufactured by at least 2 factories.

Shortround6 · 2025-01-25T21:46:18-0500

As far as energy goes I found this.
"Coal accounted for 62.2%and 58.8% of the total energy supply in 1935 and 1944, respectively."
From

https://www.cirje.e.u-tokyo.ac.jp/research/dp/2012/2012cf851.pdf

Japanese logistics, purchase programs and war booty, reality and alternatives 1936-44 (1 Viewer)

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