Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
Table is translation of data tables from the two books about Zero by Bunrin Do. We can take it for what it's worth.
Diameter of the Kasei was not ridiculoulsy large. At 52.5 in, it was same as of the R-2800. Going for extension shaft not just introduced problems with vibrations, it upped the dry engine weight bs ~220 lbs, and required that Mitsubishi devotes engineering staff to design the ectual engine version. Kasei certainly worked as 'plain Jane' engine.
What materialized as the J2M needed to be designed as next-gen carrier-based fighter (waiting for A7M will not cut it), that can be also deployed at land bases and can receive floats so there is a better floatplane fighter to pick up from the A6M2-2.
Not going for counter-rotating version of the Kasei for the rex again means less strain on Mitsubishi engine design & prototype shop.
The N1K was also not that speedy - 300 mph.
Has something gone wrong in the names? The most powerful Kinsei engines were the 60 series ( Ha-112-II, Ha-33-62) which gave 1,500 or 1,560 ps for take off with water injection. Are you talking about the Kinsei's big brother with 18 cylinders the Ha-43 or MK9?
The Kinsei's big brother was the Kasei.
Still 14 cylinders but 42 liters instead of 32.3 liters.
It powered the G4M and H8K among others, the Japanese considered it a large engine but it was no larger than the Wright R-2600, the BMW 801 or the Bristol Hercules.
I do think Tomo mixed up the names???
Hello Tomo Pauk,
Bunrin Do is somewhat intermittent in reliability at best. The data on maximum speeds simply defies logic when matched against other sources such as the tests of Koga's A6M2 and captured manuals.
I do not believe the Kasei would have been a viable fighter engine in its original versions. The developments for the version that was eventually installed in the J2M not only added the extension shaft and cooling fan but also added about 250 HP.
Without the extra streamlining from the extension shaft, I don't believe the performance would have been nearly as good.
As for the J2M as a carrier fighter or a floatplane, I don't believe either would be a workable concept. The J2M was fairly short ranged even though it carried about 700 liters of internal fuel. It was really a point defence interceptor. As a contrast the A6M3-22 and A6M5-52 carried 570-590 liters depending on sources.
The N1K Kyofu wasn't that fast either, but it WAS about 30-35 MPH faster than a A6M2-N and had about 500 feet per minute better climb.
How many of these alternative directives and plans are a result of perfect hindsight and already knowing what did NOT work?
I am not convinced that too many alternatives would have worked much better with the design resources that were available.
The Japanese aircraft industry would have been much more effective if they had concentrated development on air defence instead of long range power projection from about 1940-1941, but at the time, they probably had other ideas as to how a short victorious war was going to go.
- Ivan.
Economies work best with multiple independent suppliers. Communist countries realised this in the end.Not every speed test went the same, even when nominally same version of aircraft and engine were tested, on same boost. Same timng happened in other countries, with variances of 10 mph recorded.
Adding weight and drag should slow an aircraft down, and will lower it's RoC, provided the thrust was not improved a good deal.
Not 250 HP, but ~50 HP. Not having extension shaft does not mean we loose extra power.
Granted, 'my' Japanese fighter will be slower by 5-10 mph, but it will be climbing better, and more importantly, it should be available in better numbers so it can replace Zero.
Probably the best Kasei version was the 'normal' type, installed on the latest Betty bombers, 1480 HP at 21600 ft per TAIC doc.
I've never suggested the J2M to be converted into a carrier-borne fighter. IJN needs to request a new carrier-borne fighter, not a land-based interceptor.
If you really want a floatplane fighter, make such a version of the next-gen carrier-borne fighter, instead of developing a brand new type for such a task.
Japanese know that Entente out-produced Germany and A-H by large margin back in ww1. They know that Germany and UK are making aircraft in thousands by 1940, and by extension that USA will be able to make as much as those two countries combined. They also know their industry can't match it. Yet, instead of ruthless reduction of types of aircraft during 1940-43 so there is a gain from economy of scales, they try to solve almost each task with a dedicated aircraft type (times two since there are two military services).
I have no problems with Japanese making a good effort on long range aviation. Their mistake was that early long-range fighter types, powered by 1000-1200 HP engines, were not replaced by new long-range types powered by 1500-1900 HP engines, with improved protection, firepower, dive speed and rate of roll, nor the early types have gotten any engine power increase worth talking about until too late.
I don't see a problem with it.There is a difference between multiple independent suppliers that can bid on contracts and duplication of specifications and too many specifications. Both army and navy putting out specifications for long range, maneuverable fighters, and point interceptors, at the same time. 4 different programs, plus float fighters,
Then the twin engine bomber programs. There was too much duplication of effort for a country the size of Japan.
Not every speed test went the same, even when nominally same version of aircraft and engine were tested, on same boost. Same timng happened in other countries, with variances of 10 mph recorded.
Adding weight and drag should slow an aircraft down, and will lower it's RoC, provided the thrust was not improved a good deal.
Not 250 HP, but ~50 HP. Not having extension shaft does not mean we loose extra power.
Granted, 'my' Japanese fighter will be slower by 5-10 mph, but it will be climbing better, and more importantly, it should be available in better numbers so it can replace Zero.
Probably the best Kasei version was the 'normal' type, installed on the latest Betty bombers, 1480 HP at 21600 ft per TAIC doc.
If you really want a floatplane fighter, make such a version of the next-gen carrier-borne fighter, instead of developing a brand new type for such a task.
c
The N1K Kyofu was one of the few really successful programs. Unfortunately the need for the type was overtaken by changes in the strategic situation.
Japanese know that Entente out-produced Germany and A-H by large margin back in ww1. They know that Germany and UK are making aircraft in thousands by 1940, and by extension that USA will be able to make as much as those two countries combined. They also know their industry can't match it. Yet, instead of ruthless reduction of types of aircraft during 1940-43 so there is a gain from economy of scales, they try to solve almost each task with a dedicated aircraft type (times two since there are two military services).
You and I are actually in agreement. IF they had any sense, they never would have entered the war to begin with.
It was not something that could be won with the balance of industrial power, but my understanding was that they believed it would be a quick war with a negotiated peace as had happened twice before in wars with China and Russia.
I have no problems with Japanese making a good effort on long range aviation. Their mistake was that early long-range fighter types, powered by 1000-1200 HP engines, were not replaced by new long-range types powered by 1500-1900 HP engines, with improved protection, firepower, dive speed and rate of roll, nor the early types have gotten any engine power increase worth talking about until too late.
Those early long range fighters never got replaced at all. Long range isn't really necessary when one is doing nothing but defending.
- Ivan.
The point I was trying to make was that the developments on the engine were not just to add an extension shaft. There were quite a few more improvements in the versions used in the Raiden over other Kasei engines. With a bit less power and without the pointy nose and forced air cooling, I believe your alternative fighter would lose a lot more than 5-10 MPH in speed.
. The Zero might also have had a problem with structural failure if it were able to deflect its ailerons enough at high speed. Do you have an opinion on that
It seems we want the same thing, a four gun airplane that will do around 360mph, dive better and still maneuver close to the Ki-43. .......
The IJAAF did have the solution fighting in the front line by mid-43, the Ki-61, but its engine turned out to be an unreliable maintenance nightmare!
One of the US post war surveys deduced ~65% of Japanese aircraft design was spent on improving new designs until 1944, this turned out to be a big error.
The point I was trying to make was that the developments on the engine were not just to add an extension shaft. There were quite a few more improvements in the versions used in the Raiden over other Kasei engines.
According to TAIC, the Kasei 23 used in J2M3 was capable of 1560 HP @ 18,100 feet and 1785 HP @ 16,600 feet and 1870 HP @ Sea Level.
With a bit less power and without the pointy nose and forced air cooling, I believe your alternative fighter would lose a lot more than 5-10 MPH in speed.
The N1K Kyofu was one of the few really successful programs. Unfortunately the need for the type was overtaken by changes in the strategic situation.
You and I are actually in agreement. IF they had any sense, they never would have entered the war to begin with.
It was not something that could be won with the balance of industrial power, but my understanding was that they believed it would be a quick war with a negotiated peace as had happened twice before in wars with China and Russia.
Those early long range fighters never got replaced at all. Long range isn't really necessary when one is doing nothing but defending.
- Ivan.
Did you mean "65% of Japanese aircraft design was spent onimprovingnew designs until 1944"
or 65% of Japanese aircraft design was spent on improvingnewdesigns until 1944"
Just wondering as I am a bit confused by the statement.
I would be interested to know what the UK and German figures would be. Think of the effort put into Hurricanes, Spifires, Wellingtons and if you take the start as Dec 1941, Stirling's, Halifax's Manchester's/Lancaster's Typhoons and no doubt others. As for the German its a similar story, 109, 190, Ju88 He111 Do17, 215, 217, and so on.Ooopps I meant to write, a US post war survey deduced ~65% of Japanese aircraft design was spent on improving old designs until 1944, this turned out to be a big error.
I would be interested to know what the UK and German figures would be. Think of the effort put into Hurricanes, Spifires, Wellingtons and if you take the start as Dec 1941, Stirling's, Halifax's Manchester's/Lancaster's Typhoons and no doubt others. As for the German its a similar story, 109, 190, Ju88 He111 Do17, 215, 217, and so on.
Part of it may be that some of the Japanese "improvements" were of a minor nature. Once the Ki 43 got a two speed supercharger it was essentially frozen. A few minor tweaks?
Some different Ki 61s but mostly just changing the guns around. Some of their bombers show the same thing. The attempts to upgrade the A6M's engine after fitting the two speed supercharger didn't seem to work.
The Spitfire got much more powerful engines. The Wellington got better engines but was pretty much replaced in the primary theater.
I would also note that many of the projects started after 1942 (as in pen went to paper in 1943) failed to reach squadron service in any numbers by 1945 in most air forces.
Part of it may be that some of the Japanese "improvements" were of a minor nature. Once the Ki 43 got a two speed supercharger it was essentially frozen. A few minor tweaks?
Some different Ki 61s but mostly just changing the guns around. Some of their bombers show the same thing. The attempts to upgrade the A6M's engine after fitting the two speed supercharger didn't seem to work.
This reminds me of working for Fujitsu-ICL in the 1980's.Part of the problem (a very big part if the German staff in Japan are to be believed) was that no-one wanted to take responsibility for any changes. This is from page 21/22 of German translations of activities in Japanese aircraft production 7 September 1945. Report No. 9-a(50), USSBS Index Section 6 - 国立国会図書館デジタルコレクション
A better translation might be Translations of German activities in Japanese aircraft production
View attachment 565107