Japanese Zero vs Spitfire vs FW 190

[nuuumannn]

A bit about the Merlin 46 trials at Boscombe down in early 1942, where Merlin 46 powered VC AB488 was compared with Merlin 45 powered AA873, with the following data:

Max level speed AA873 was 374 mph at 19,000 ft, with AB488 358 at 21,000 ft. Level speed at 10,000 ft: AA873 was 336 mph, AB488 was 315. Service ceiling @ 3,000 rpm: AA873 and AB488 was 38,000 ft. Max rate of climb: AA873 was 3180 ft/min at 13,400 ft and AB488 was 35,100 ft/min at 17,100 ft. Rate of climb at 10,000 ft: AA873 was 3180 and AB488 was 2670.

The Merlin 46 demonstrated significantly greater performance at altitude compared to the Merlin 45, but when fitted with a 29 gallon fuel tank behind the pilot's seat, the Merlin 46 engined Spitfire was more difficult to fly above 15,000 ft.

A further comparison between Spitfires fitted with tropical filters and without can be made between Merlin 45 engined VCs AB320 and the previously mentioned AA873. AB320 took ten minutes to reach 14,000 ft at 2,145 ft/min, with AA873 taking 7.4 minutes to reach 13,400 ft at a rate of climb of 2,900 ft/min. AB320's ceiling was 34,500 ft, AA873's was 36,400 ft, slightly lower than that recorded in the previous test above. AB320's maximum speed was 337.5 mph at 17,400 ft, while AA873's was 374 mph at 19,000 ft.

These figures clearly show the discrepancy in performance between filter equipped and non filter equipped Spitfires. Granted, the trials were carried out in Britain and not in either a tropical nor desert climate.

 

[pinsog]

Seriously mate, the RAAF spitfires were fitted with high altitude merlin 46's rated at 9psi boost pressure not Merlin 45's running 16psi, as posted by SR6 with only 9psi the 46 was giving away 500hp at the test altitude, the RAF had cleared all Merlin marks to 16psi in Aug '42 and were running 18psi Feb '42, do you think that running less boost in '43 than the Merlin XII was 1940 could be the reason the V's performance was down to the Zero's level?.

I have said about a dozen times that a Spitfire based in Europe with no filter and high boost etc would have been a different story BUT THE SPITFIRES THAT WERE USED BY THE RAAF WERE INFERIOR TO THE ZERO, even inferior to the captured Zero that didn't even have over boost. I never said a Zero was better than a Spitfire mark IV or anything else. I said the Spitfires delivered to the RAAF and fitted with the dust filters and run at 9 psi were definitely inferior to a Zero as confirmed by the 2 test pilots that flew them. It was 28-5 in favor of the Zero, why didn't they turn up the boost if that would have magically worked? What altitude can you get 16 psi boost?

 

[pinsog]

All good but one incident like this doesn't mean much. I'd like to know specifics, units, speeds etc. Hopefully you can find this reference.

Again, one incident doesn't mean this was a common occurrence.

View attachment 645341

Secrets of a P-38 Ace. John Tilley's electrifying story

By age 21, Capt. Tilley was an Ace combat pilot! By age 21 Capt. Tilley had received a DFC, 7 Air Medals, and a Campaign ribbon with 7 battle stars

www.kilroywashere.org

I found the Spitfire VIII story somewhere else. I'll add the link so you can read before and after. I don't cherry pick stuff to try to win an argument, I'm interested in finding the real story so I want you to be able to read everything. Notice the page number 193 so you'll know about where to go.

https://wlv.openrepository.com/bitstream/handle/2436/299634/Preston-Hough%20PhD%20Thesis.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

 

[FLYBOYJ]

View attachment 645354
I found the Spitfire VIII story somewhere else. I'll add the link so you can read before and after. I don't cherry pick stuff to try to win an argument, I'm interested in finding the real story so I want you to be able to read everything. Notice the page number 193 so you'll know about where to go.

https://wlv.openrepository.com/bitstream/handle/2436/299634/Preston-Hough%20PhD%20Thesis.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

No, I get it but realize again this was a diary entry describing a combat situation where the Spitfire pilots attempted a maneuvering fight with Oscars. Of course you're going to bend the aircraft!

You don't get into a turning fight with Oscars and Zeros! AVG 101!

 

[nuuumannn]

I said the Spitfires delivered to the RAAF and fitted with the dust filters and run at 9 psi were definitely inferior to a Zero as confirmed by the 2 test pilots that flew them.

Depends on which Zero and which Spitfire, you repeatedly claim the Zero in your test, but that trial was done with a later variant of the Zero to the A6M2s that the Aussie Spitfires first encountered, which tends to blur your evidence a bit. Not all Zeros were equal, just like not all Spitfires were.

It's also worth remarking that despite what basic performance trials revealed between the two types, Spitfires regularly tackled the Japanese in combat and came off better in 1943. In March 1943 a force of nine B5Ns and 16 A6Ms were intercepted by 54 Sqn, with the loss of three Japanese aircraft and no Spitfires shot down, with ace Clive Caldwell credited with one kill. 54 Sqn's first kill was a Ki-46, as was 457's. On March 22, a force of 22 G4Ms escorted by 27 A6Ms was intercepted, in which six G4Ms and two A6Ms were shot down for the loss of four Spitfires. This was before the disastrous raid on 2nd May, in which 13 Spitfires were lost, five of which were shot down, the rest through mechanical failure.

Following the usual inquiry and public bashing of the Spitfire in the press, favourable results began emerging, on 20 June, 25 bombers escorted by a large number of A6Ms was intercepted and 16 enemy aircraft were shot down for the loss of two Spitfires.

The last major air incursion the early Capstans were involved in over Darwin was an odd one in which a single Ki-46 was escorted by no less than 20 A6Ms, the Japanese clearly getting tired of their recon birds being shot down. The final tally was seven enemy aircraft shot down for the loss of four Spitfires.

 

[nuuumannn]

It's worth noting in these interceptor clashes that the role of the interceptor is not specifically to be better than the fighters defending the bombers, but to be better than the bombers, as obvious as that might sound. Obviously, if the escort fighter is superior then the interceptors have work to do to avoid combat with them, but their aim is to shoot down the bombers, not just to tackle the fighter escorts.

I'll include a note that I left in another thread about the Bf 109E during the Battle of Britain, which had superior altitude performance compared to the Spitfire I and Hurricane I, Bf 109s accounting for a higher number of RAF fighters than vice versa, achieving a 1.2 to 1 kill ratio in favour of the Bf 109, but the clincher is that the RAF accounted for a greater number of enemy aircraft than the Luftwaffe did, achieving a nearly 2 to 1 kill ratio, which resulted in unsustainable losses the Luftwaffe could ill-afford to lose.

 

[nuuumannn]

So, to illustrate my point, taking a look at my post above and the major combats mentioned, bearing in mind it isn't a comprehensive list of aircraft losses, the RAAF lost a total of 24 Spitfires in those I mentioned, I'd say most of which were shot down by A6Ms, whereas the Japanese lost a total of 36 aircraft of all types, which means in that period across the raids I mention, the Japanese are losing by a ratio of 3 to 2 to the RAAF.

Obviously this needs to be put into some meaningful context, such as total number of attackers versus total number of defenders and the ability of both sides to replenish their losses, but the point is made that the odds are against the Japanese in this scenario.

 

[PAT303]

As were the Spitfires See my post above.

Well considering how many mechanical failures they had I'd dispute how ''new'' they were, they always seemed to be outnumbered also.

 

[PAT303]

It's worth noting in these interceptor clashes that the role of the interceptor is not specifically to be better than the fighters defending the bombers, but to be better than the bombers, as obvious as that might sound. Obviously, if the escort fighter is superior then the interceptors have work to do to avoid combat with them, but their aim is to shoot down the bombers, not just to tackle the fighter escorts.

I'll include a note that I left in another thread about the Bf 109E during the Battle of Britain, which had superior altitude performance compared to the Spitfire I and Hurricane I, Bf 109s accounting for a higher number of RAF fighters than vice versa, achieving a 1.2 to 1 kill ratio in favour of the Bf 109, but the clincher is that the RAF accounted for a greater number of enemy aircraft than the Luftwaffe did, achieving a nearly 2 to 1 kill ratio, which resulted in unsustainable losses the Luftwaffe could ill-afford to lose.

Over Darwin the tactics were the same as the BoB, priority targets were bombers, that explains why 19 of the 26 Spitfires lost were shot down while engaging them.

 

[PAT303]

I never said a Zero was better than a Spitfire mark IV or anything else.

Yes you have numerous times starting with post 1,243, you might try reading reply 1,305, puts your 26-1 kill ratio into perspective.

 

[Stig1207]

Depends on which Zero and which Spitfire, you repeatedly claim the Zero in your test, but that trial was done with a later variant of the Zero to the A6M2s that the Aussie Spitfires first encountered, which tends to blur your evidence a bit. Not all Zeros were equal, just like not all Spitfires were.

It's also worth remarking that despite what basic performance trials revealed between the two types, Spitfires regularly tackled the Japanese in combat and came off better in 1943. In March 1943 a force of nine B5Ns and 16 A6Ms were intercepted by 54 Sqn, with the loss of three Japanese aircraft and no Spitfires shot down, with ace Clive Caldwell credited with one kill. 54 Sqn's first kill was a Ki-46, as was 457's. On March 22, a force of 22 G4Ms escorted by 27 A6Ms was intercepted, in which six G4Ms and two A6Ms were shot down for the loss of four Spitfires. This was before the disastrous raid on 2nd May, in which 13 Spitfires were lost, five of which were shot down, the rest through mechanical failure.

Following the usual inquiry and public bashing of the Spitfire in the press, favourable results began emerging, on 20 June, 25 bombers escorted by a large number of A6Ms was intercepted and 16 enemy aircraft were shot down for the loss of two Spitfires.

The last major air incursion the early Capstans were involved in over Darwin was an odd one in which a single Ki-46 was escorted by no less than 20 A6Ms, the Japanese clearly getting tired of their recon birds being shot down. The final tally was seven enemy aircraft shot down for the loss of four Spitfires.

What is your source for these combat results? They don't tally too well with RAAF Combats in NWA

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

257 Spitfre mark V shipped to Australia, ignoring the group diverted to the Middle East, sorted by RAF Serial, 11 lost at sea, 1 damaged beyond repair en route. First dates, mark and engines from the online Spitfire histories, departure and arrival dates from either air force or ship movement records, unfortunately the dates themselves have had to be deleted to fit the message into the 20,000 character limit rule. Arrive -1st is the number of days between the first date and arrival in Australia, Arrive-depart is the number of days en route. The ADF serials web page has some interesting variations on the ship names.

Serial / Mark / Engine / RAAF / Ship / Arrive-1st / Arrive-depart / Note
AR510 / Vc / M46 / A58-1 / Waroonga / 175 / 69 /
AR523 / Vc / M46 / A58-2 / Waroonga / 161 / 69 /
AR526 / Vc / M46 / A58-3 / Waroonga / 163 / 69 /
AR532 / Vc / M46 / A58-4 / Waroonga / 157 / 69 /
AR558 / Vc / M46 / A58-5 / Port Wyndham / 119 / 43 /
AR563 / Vc / M46 / A58-6 / Port Sydney / 113 / 69 /
AR564 / Vc / M46 / A58-7 / Sussex / 255 / 38 /
AR619 / Vc / M46 / A58-8 / Sussex / 86 / 40 /
AR620 / Vc / M46 / A58-9 / Sussex / 82 / 40 /
AR621 / Vc / M46 / A58-10 / Sussex / 82 / 40 /
BR237 / VcT / M46 / A58-15 / Eurybates / 127 / 80 /
BR238 / VcT / M46 / A58-16 / Hoperidge / 124 / 80 /
BR239 / VcT / M46 / A58-17 / Hoperidge / 121 / 80 /
BR240 / VcT / M46 / A58-18 / Hoperidge / 115 / 80 /
BR241 / VcT / M46 / A58-19 / Hoperidge / 114 / 80 /
BR386 / VcT / M46 / A58-22 / Stirling Castle / 95 / 54 /
BR462 / VcT / M46 / A58-23 / Stirling Castle / 88 / 54 /
BR468 / VcT / M46 / A58-24 / Hoperidge / 160 / 80 /
BR471 / VcT / M46 / A58-25 / Stirling Castle / 84 / 54 /
BR480 / VcT / M46 / A58-26 / Hoperidge / 146 / 80 /
BR484 / VcT / M46 / A58-27 / Eurybates / 138 / 80 /
BR485 / VcT / M46 / A58-28 / Eurybates / 137 / 80 /
BR490 / VcT / M46 / A58-29 / Eurybates / 133 / 80 /
BR493 / VcT / M46 / A58-30 / Eurybates / 129 / 80 /
BR495 / VcT / M46 / A58-31 / Eurybates / 127 / 80 /
BR497 / VcT / M46 / A58-32 / Eurybates / 127 / 80 /
BR499 / VcT / M46 / A58-33 / Eurybates / 127 / 80 /
BR526 / VcT / M46 / A58-34 / Hoperidge / 132 / 80 /
BR527 / VcT / M46 / A58-35 / Hoperidge / 132 / 80 /
BR528 / VcT / M46 / A58-36 / Hoperidge / 132 / 80 /
BR530 / VcT / M46 / A58-37 / Hoperidge / 132 / 80 /
BR531 / VcT / M46 / A58-38 / Hoperidge / 125 / 80 /
BR532 / VcT / M46 / A58-39 / Eurybates / 122 / 80 /
BR533 / VcT / M46 / A58-40 / Eurybates / 120 / 80 /
BR535 / VcT / M46 / A58-41 / Hoperidge / 122 / 80 /
BR536 / VcT / M46 / A58-42 / Hoperidge / 122 / 80 /
BR537 / VcT / M46 / A58-43 / Hoperidge / 120 / 80 /
BR538 / VcT / M46 / A58-44 / Hoperidge / 120 / 80 /
BR539 / VcT / M46 / A58-45 / Hoperidge / 118 / 80 /
BR540 / VcT / M46 / A58-46 / Hoperidge / 116 / 80 /
BR541 / VcT / M46 / A58-47 / Hoperidge / 113 / 80 /
BR542 / VcT / M46 / A58-48 / Hoperidge / 110 / 80 /
BR543 / VcT / M46 / A58-49 / Hoperidge / 108 / 80 /
BR544 / VcT / M46 / A58-50 / Hoperidge / 106 / 80 /
BR545 / VcT / M46 / A58-51 / Hoperidge / 104 / 80 /
BR546 / VcT / M46 / A58-52 / Hoperidge / 101 / 80 /
BR547 / VcT / M46 / A58-53 / Hoperidge / 98 / 80 /
BR548 / VcT / M46 / A58-54 / Hoperidge / 98 / 80 /
BR549 / VcT / M46 / A58-55 / Hoperidge / 93 / 80 /
BR568 / VcT / M46 / A58-56 / Stirling Castle / 86 / 54 /
BR570 / VcT / M46 / A58-57 / Stirling Castle / 85 / 54 /
BR572 / VcT / M46 / A58-58 / Stirling Castle / 85 / 54 /
BR574 / VcT / M46 / A58-59 / Tekoa / 196 / 76 /
BR584 / VcT / M46 / A58-60 / Hoperidge / 146 / 80 /
BR589 / VcT / M46 / A58-61 / Hoperidge / 140 / 80 /
BS158 / VcT / M46 / A58-11 / Eurybates / 124 / 80 /
BS162 / VcT / M46 / A58-12 / Eurybates / 119 / 80 /
BS163 / VcT / M46 / A58-62 / Hoperidge / 124 / 80 /
BS164 / VcT / M46 / A58-63 / Hoperidge / 124 / 80 /
BS165 / VcT / M46 / A58-13 / Hoperidge / 121 / 80 /
BS166 / VcT / M46 / A58-64 / Hoperidge / 120 / 80 /
BS169 / VcT / M46 / A58-65 / Hoperidge / 118 / 80 /
BS171 / VcT / M46 / A58-66 / Hoperidge / 115 / 80 /
BS173 / VcT / M46 / A58-67 / Hoperidge / 113 / 80 /
BS174 / VcT / M46 / A58-68 / Hoperidge / 113 / 80 /
BS175 / VcT / M46 / A58-69 / Hoperidge / 110 / 80 /
BS178 / VcT / M46 / A58-70 / Hoperidge / 107 / 80 /
BS181 / VcT / M46 / A58-71 / Hoperidge / 104 / 80 /
BS182 / VcT / M46 / A58-72 / Hoperidge / 104 / 80 /
BS184 / VcT / M46 / A58-73 / Hoperidge / 104 / 80 /
BS186 / VcT / M46 / A58-74 / Hoperidge / 100 / 80 /
BS187 / VcT / M46 / A58-75 / Hoperidge / 100 / 80 /
BS188 / VcT / M46 / A58-76 / Hoperidge / 98 / 80 /
BS190 / VcT / M46 / A58-77 / Hoperidge / 96 / 80 /
BS191 / VcT / M46 / A58-78 / Hoperidge / 96 / 80 /
BS193 / VcT / M46 / A58-79 / Terkoelei / 114 / 89 /
BS197 / VcT / M46 / A58-80 / Hoperidge / 91 / 80 /
BS199 / VcT / M46 / A58-81 / Terkoelei / 111 / 89 /
BS201 / VcT / M46 / A58-82 / Port Sydney / 109 / 69 /
BS218 / VcT / M46 / A58-83 / Hoperidge / 104 / 80 /
BS219 / VcT / M46 / A58-84 / Hoperidge / 97 / 80 /
BS220 / VcT / M46 / A58-85 / Port Sydney / 97 / 69 /
BS221 / VcT / M46 / A58-86 / Raranga / 88 / 73 /
BS222 / VcT / M46 / A58-87 / Port Wyndham / 89 / 43 /
BS223 / VcT / M46 / A58-14 / Port Wyndham / 83 / 43 /
BS224 / VcT / M46 / A58-88 / Port Wyndham / 82 / 43 /
BS225 / VcT / M46 / A58-89 / Waroonga / 112 / 69 /
BS226 / VcT / M46 / A58-90 / Port Wyndham / 77 / 43 /
BS230 / VcT / M46 / A58-91 / Hoperidge / 90 / 80 /
BS231 / VcT / M46 / A58-92 / Terkoelei / 111 / 89 /
BS232 / VcT / M46 / A58-93 / Port Sydney / 100 / 69 /
BS233 / VcT / M46 / A58-94 / Raranga / 90 / 73 /
BS234 / VcT / M46 / A58-95 / Raranga / 89 / 73 /
BS235 / VcT / M46 / A58-96 / Tekoa / 110 / 76 /
BS236 / VcT / M46 / A58-97 / Tekoa / 108 / 76 /
BS237 / VcT / M46 / A58-98 / Tekoa / 105 / 76 /
BS238 / VcT / M46 / A58-99 / Port Wyndham / 83 / 43 /
BS291 / VcT / M46 / A58-100 / Port Sydney / 103 / 69 /
BS293 / VcT / M46 / A58-101 / Port Sydney / 100 / 69 /
BS295 / VcT / M46 / A58-20 / Raranga / 93 / 73 /
BS298 / VcT / M46 / A58-102 / Tekoa / 110 / 76 /
BS300 / VcT / M46 / A58-21 / Raranga / 85 / 73 /
BS305 / VcT / M46 / A58-103 / Tekoa / 101 / 76 /
EE605 / Vc / M46 / A58-105 / Port Wyndham / 68 / 43 /
EE606 / Vc / M46 / A58-106 / Port Wyndham / 68 / 43 /
EE607 / Vc / M46 / A58-107 / Sussex / 75 / 40 /
EE608 / Vc / M46 / A58-108 / Port Wyndham / 67 / 43 /
EE609 / Vc / M46 / A58-109 / Port Wyndham / 67 / 43 /
EE610 / Vc / M46 / A58-110 / Port Wyndham / 67 / 43 /
EE636 / Vc / M46 / A58-111 / Taranaki / 108 / 59 /
EE639 / Vc / M46 / A58-112 / Taranaki / 108 / 59 /
EE669 / Vc / M46 / A58-113 / Australia Star / 141 / 42 /
EE670 / Vc / M46 / A58-114 / Taranaki / 94 / 59 /
EE671 / Vc / M46 / A58-115 / Port Dunedin / 124 / 71 /
EE672 / Vc / M46 / A58-116 / Taranaki / 94 / 59 /
EE673 / Vc / M46 / A58-117 / Port Dunedin / 124 / 71 /
EE674 / Vc / M46 / A58-118 / Taranaki / 87 / 59 /
EE675 / Vc / M46 / A58-119 / Port Dunedin / 124 / 71 /
EE676 / Vc / M46 / A58-120 / Sarpendon / 118 / 90 /
EE677 / Vc / M46 / A58-121 / Sarpendon / 118 / 90 /
EE678 / Vc / M46 / A58-122 / Sarpendon / 118 / 90 /
EE713 / Vc / M46 / A58-123 / Sarpendon / 108 / 90 /
EE718 / Vc / M46 / A58-124 / Empire Strength / 123 / 68 /
EE719 / Vc / M46 / A58-125 / Empire Strength / 131 / 68 /
EE728 / Vc / M46 / A58-126 / Empire Strength / 123 / 68 /
EE729 / Vc / M46 / A58-127 / Empire Strength / 123 / 68 /
EE731 / Vc / M46 / A58-na / Empire Strength / 123 / 68 / Lost without receiving an RAAF serial
EE733 / Vc / M46 / A58-128 / Empire Strength / 124 / 68 /
EE734 / Vc / M46 / A58-129 / Australia Star / 114 / 42 /
EE735 / Vc / M46 / A58-130 / Empire Strength / 120 / 68 /
EE736 / Vc / M46 / A58-131 / Unknown / 210 / 161 / Shipped on Empire Strength 11-Jan-43 but damaged in transit crossing the Atlantic and off loaded in New York, then later on shipped, Rec 2 AD ex UK 07-07-43. Never operated by RAAF.
EE737 / Vc / M46 / A58-132 / Empire Strength / 117 / 68 /
EE748 / Vc / M46 / A58-133 / Australia Star / 98 / 42 /
EE751 / Vc / M46 / A58-134 / Empire Strength / 109 / 68 /
EE807 / Vc / M46 / A58-135 / Sussex / 104 / 38 /
EE834 / Vc / M46 / A58-136 / Tijuca / 99 / 68 /
EE835 / Vc / M46 / A58-137 / Tijuca / 99 / 68 /
EE836 / Vc / M46 / A58-138 / Tijuca / 99 / 68 /
EE837 / Vc / M46 / A58-139 / LS117 / 157 / 78 / Ship name unknown
EE842 / Vc / M46 / / Silver Beech / na / na / Lost at Sea
EE843 / Vc / M46 / / Silver Beech / na / na / Lost at Sea
EE844 / Vc / M46 / A58-140 / Sussex / 83 / 38 /
EE845 / Vc / M46 / A58-141 / Sussex / 79 / 38 /
EE848 / Vc / M46 / / Silver Beech / na / na / Lost at Sea
EE849 / Vc / M46 / A58-142 / Sussex / 83 / 38 /
EE850 / Vc / M46 / A58-143 / Sussex / 83 / 38 /
EE851 / Vc / M46 / A58-144 / Sussex / 83 / 38 /
EE852 / Vc / M46 / A58-145 / Sussex / 79 / 38 /
EE853 / Vc / M46 / A58-146 / Sussex / 83 / 38 /
EF543 / VcT / M45 / A58-147 / Asphalion / 93 / 73 /
EF544 / Vc / M46 / A58-148 / LS117 / 110 / 78 / Ship name unknown
EF545 / Vc / M46 / A58-149 / Asphalion / 91 / 73 /
EF546 / Vc / M46 / A58-150 / Asphalion / 91 / 73 /
EF556 / Vc / M46 / A58-151 / LS117 / 109 / 78 / Ship name unknown
EF557 / Vc / M46 / A58-152 / Lanarkshire / 159 / 38 /
EF558 / Vc / M46 / A58-153 / LS117 / 110 / 78 / Ship name unknown
EF559 / Vc / M46 / A58-154 / Tekoa / 120 / 75 /
EF560 / Vc / M46 / A58-155 / LS117 / 110 / 78 / Ship name unknown
EF562 / Vc / M46 / A58-156 / Tekoa / 125 / 75 /
EF563 / Vc / M46 / A58-157 / Tekoa / 117 / 75 /
EF564 / Vc / M46 / A58-104 / Sussex / 50 / 38 /
EF565 / Vc / M45 / A58-158 / Tekoa / 116 / 75 /
EF587 / Vc / M45 / A58-159 / Tekoa / 116 / 75 /
EF588 / Vc / M46 / A58-160 / Tekoa / 109 / 75 /
EF589 / Vc / M46 / A58-161 / Tekoa / 109 / 75 /
EF590 / Vc / M46 / A58-162 / Nestor / 155 / 98 /
ER735 / Vc / M46 / A58-163 / Empire Strength / 158 / 68 /
ER760 / Vc / M46 / A58-164 / Taranaki / 102 / 59 /
ES232 / Vc / M46 / A58-165 / Empire Strength / 112 / 68 /
ES238 / Vc / M46 / A58-166 / Port Dunedin / 91 / 71 /
ES249 / Vc / M46 / A58-167 / Port Dunedin / 92 / 71 /
ES259 / Vc / M46 / A58-168 / Port Dunedin / 92 / 71 /
ES307 / Vc / M46 / A58-169 / Empire Strength / 111 / 68 /
ES367 / Vc / M46 / A58-170 / Australia Star / 86 / 42 /
JG728 / Vc / M46 / A58-171 / Asphalion / 153 / 73 /
JG731 / Vc / M46 / A58-172 / Australia Star / 83 / 42 /
JG740 / Vc / M46 / A58-173 / Australia Star / 86 / 42 /
JG795 / Vc / M46 / A58-174 / Australia Star / 86 / 42 /
JG796 / Vc / M46 / A58-175 / Australia Star / 86 / 42 /
JG807 / Vc / M46 / A58-176 / Tijuca / 117 / 68 /
JG884 / Vc / M46 / A58-177 / Asphalion / 125 / 73 /
JG891 / Vc / M46 / A58-178 / Tijuca / 101 / 68 /
JG897 / Vc / M46 / A58-179 / Sussex / 104 / 38 /
JG912 / Vc / M46 / A58-180 / Tijuca / 101 / 68 /
JG954 / Vc / M46 / A58-181 / Sussex / 104 / 38 /
JG957 / Vc / M46 / A58-182 / Tijuca / 101 / 68 /
JK174 / Vc / M46 / / Silver Beech / na / na / Lost at Sea
JK176 / Vc / M46 / / Silver Beech / na / na / Lost at Sea
JK181 / VcT / M46 / / Silver Beech / na / na / Lost at Sea
JK184 / Vc / M46 / / Silver Beech / na / na / Lost at Sea
JK225 / Vc / M46 / A58-183 / Asphalion / 103 / 73 /
JK229 / Vc / M46 / A58-184 / Sussex / 66 / 38 /
JK231 / Vc / M46 / A58-185 / Sussex / 66 / 38 /
JK257 / VcT / M46 / / Silver Beech / na / na / Lost at Sea
JK258 / VcT / M50A / / Silver Beech / na / na / Lost at Sea
JK273 / VcT / M45 / / Silver Beech / na / na / Lost at Sea
JK331 / VcT / M46 / / Silver Beech / na / na / Lost at Sea
JL247 / VcT / / A58-200 / Kent / 75 / 54 /
JL314 / VcT / M50 / A58-201 / Lanarkshire / 63 / 38 /
JL348 / VcT / / A58-202 / Nestor / 113 / 98 /
JL360 / VcT / / A58-203 / Nestor / 113 / 98 /
JL371 / VcT / M50 / A58-204 / Kent / 75 / 54 /
JL378 / VcT / M50 / A58-205 / Kent / 75 / 54 /
JL380 / VcT / M50 / A58-206 / Nestor / 112 / 98 /
JL382 / VcT / M50 / A58-207 / Kent / 75 / 54 /
JL386 / VcT / / A58-208 / Lanarkshire / 104 / 38 /
JL392 / VcT / / A58-209 / Nestor / 113 / 98 /
JL394 / VcT / M50 / A58-210 / Kent / 74 / 54 /
LZ834 / VcT / M50 / A58-211 / Brisbane Star / 62 / 43 /
LZ835 / VcT / M50 / A58-212 / Tongariro / 105 / 53 /
LZ844 / Vc / M50 / A58-213 / Kent / 74 / 54 /
LZ845 / Vc / M50 / A58-214 / Kent / 75 / 54 /
LZ846 / Vc / M50 / A58-215 / Brisbane Star / 68 / 43 /
LZ848 / Vc / M50 / A58-216 / Brisbane Star / 66 / 43 /
LZ862 / VcT / M50 / A58-217 / Lanarkshire / 101 / 38 /
LZ865 / Vc / M50 / A58-218 / Nestor / 114 / 98 /
LZ866 / Vc / M50 / A58-219 / Brisbane Star / 68 / 43 /
LZ867 / Vc / M50 / A58-220 / Nestor / 113 / 98 /
LZ868 / Vc / M50 / A58-221 / Brisbane Star / 68 / 43 /
LZ870 / Vc / M50 / A58-222 / Brisbane Star / 67 / 43 /
LZ873 / Vc / M50 / A58-223 / Brisbane Star / 71 / 43 /
LZ874 / Vc / M50 / A58-224 / Brisbane Star / 60 / 43 /
LZ881 / Vc / M50 / A58-225 / Brisbane Star / 68 / 43 /
LZ883 / VcT / M50 / A58-226 / Tongariro / 88 / 53 /
LZ884 / VcT / M50 / A58-227 / Brisbane Star / 59 / 43 /
LZ886 / VcT / M50 / A58-228 / Brisbane Star / 59 / 43 /
LZ926 / VcT / M50 / A58-229 / Tongariro / 99 / 53 /
LZ934 / VcT / M50 / A58-230 / Lanarkshire / 93 / 38 /
MA352 / VcT / M50 / A58-231 / Lanarkshire / 65 / 38 /
MA353 / VcT / M50 / A58-232 / Lanarkshire / 64 / 38 /
MA354 / VcT / M50 / A58-233 / Lanarkshire / 65 / 38 /
MA355 / VcT / M50 / A58-234 / Lanarkshire / 63 / 38 /
MA356 / VcT / M50 / A58-235 / Lanarkshire / 61 / 38 /
MA366 / VcT / M50 / A58-236 / Lanarkshire / 54 / 38 /
MA385 / VcT / M50 / A58-237 / Lanarkshire / 57 / 38 /
MA387 / VcT / M50 / A58-238 / Lanarkshire / 62 / 38 /
MA389 / VcT / M50 / A58-239 / Lanarkshire / 61 / 38 /
MA394 / VcT / M50 / A58-240 / Lanarkshire / 58 / 38 /
MA395 / VcT / M50 / A58-241 / Durham / 66 / 51 /
MA685 / VcT / M50 / A58-242 / Port Dunedin / 107 / 74 /
MA689 / VcT / M50 / A58-243 / Lanarkshire / 51 / 38 /
MA697 / VcT / M55 / A58-244 / Cornwall / 87 / 73 /
MA699 / VcT / M55 / A58-245 / Horoata / 75 / 37 /
MA863 / VcT / M50 / A58-246 / Horoata / 74 / 37 /
MH306 / VcT / M50 / A58-247 / Cornwall / 93 / 73 /
MH566 / VcT / M55 / A58-248 / Durham / 66 / 51 /
MH585 / VcT / M55 / A58-249 / Durham / 65 / 51 /
MH586 / VcT / M55 / A58-250 / Cornwall / 86 / 73 /
MH587 / VcT / M55 / A58-251 / Horoata / 75 / 37 /
MH588 / VcT / M55 / A58-252 / Horoata / 77 / 37 /
MH589 / VcT / M55 / A58-253 / Horoata / 74 / 37 /
MH591 / VcT / M55 / A58-254 / Horoata / 74 / 37 /
MH642 / VcT / M55 / A58-255 / Durham / 65 / 51 /
MH643 / VcT / M55 / A58-256 / Durham / 65 / 51 /
MH644 / VcT / M55 / A58-257 / Durham / 65 / 51 /
MH645 / VcT / M55 / A58-258 / Cornwall / 93 / 73 /
MH646 / VcT / M55 / A58-259 / Cornwall / 93 / 73 /

 

[nuuumannn]

Well considering how many mechanical failures they had I'd dispute how ''new'' they were, they always seemed to be outnumbered also.

Considering they rolled straight out of the factory to the MUs then were put onto ships for Australia within a month of completion, that's pretty "new", don't ya think? Outnumbered isn't entirely relevant, considering the previous reference to the Battle of Britain, where the RAF interceptors were often outnumbered by significant margins by the German opposition.

 

[nuuumannn]

What is your source for these combat results? They don't tally too well with RAAF Combats in NWA

I got the info from Stewart Wilson's Book Spitfire, Mustang and Kittyhawk In Australian Service. That's right, they don't...

 

[pinsog]

Over Darwin the tactics were the same as the BoB, priority targets were bombers, that explains why 19 of the 26 Spitfires lost were shot down while engaging them.

Escorts have to be delt with whether they are Zeros, P38's, P47's, P51's, Me109's, or Wildcats. If a pilot is so stupid that he just ignores the escort to go after the bombers then he deserves to get shot down. Two exceptions to that in my opinion are 1. defending a carrier, if they sink it you have no home to return to 2. If you have a BIG performance advantage over the escort ME262 vs P51, or in this case maybe a P38, P51, P47 or Spitfire VIII or IX (none of which were available) vs a Zero. Otherwise you have got to have at least some of your number engage and tie up the escorts.

 

[pinsog]

Yes you have numerous times starting with post 1,243, you might try reading reply 1,305, puts your 26-1 kill ratio into perspective.

Kill ratio was 28-5 not 26-1. I will say it one more time: the Spitfire V with the tropical filter was in fact inferior to the Zero it fought. I don't care what they had in Europe, or how much boost it made or how fast it climbed or how fast it was in level flight because it was not the Spitfire model that was shipped fo Australia so it is irrelevant. I have said repeatedly that the Spitfire was a fine plane especially the Spitfire VIII and IX on up. A Spitfire VIII or IX or XIV would likely have done fantastic, but they weren't there. They were using a Spitfire V with a tropical filter and under 20,000 feet it could do virtually nothing better than the Zero according to the 2 test pilots that flew them head to head. If it had a 4000 ft height advantage then it could boom and zoom the Zero but virtually any 2 contemporary fighters could do that to each other.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Escorts have to be delt with whether they are Zeros, P38's, P47's, P51's, Me109's, or Wildcats. If a pilot is so stupid that he just ignores the escort to go after the bombers then he deserves to get shot down. Two exceptions to that in my opinion are 1. defending a carrier, if they sink it you have no home to return to 2. If you have a BIG performance advantage over the escort ME262 vs P51, or in this case maybe a P38, P51, P47 or Spitfire VIII or IX (none of which were available) vs a Zero. Otherwise you have got to have at least some of your number engage and tie up the escorts.

OK - you need to back to aerial combat 101. Battle of Britain - Guadalcanal - Defense of the Reich - and in this discussion, the defense of Darwin was all about bringing down the bombers so strategic and population targets could be protected.

That's not to say that if a target is presented in front of you, you don't engage it!

From Wiki:

By 11:04, Lindmayr's Dorniers had reached Calais. Wing Commander Lord Willoughby de Broke, Park's senior fighter controller, watched with the Prime Minister and Park as the Germans moved closer. De Broke had a problem of his own. He had no way of knowing which plots represented bombers and fighters. Bombers had to be intercepted, fighters could be ignored. The trick was to strike a balance and time the interception as well as possible.

Battle of Britain Day - Wikipedia

 

[Clayton Magnet]

If a pilot is so stupid that he just ignores the escort to go after the bombers then he deserves to get shot down

When said bomber is literally about to drop bombs on your home, and families there in, the escorts perhaps take a slightly lower tier of importance.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

pinsog said:
"If a pilot is so stupid that he just ignores the escort to go after the bombers then he deserves to get shot down"

In more modern times read about "Operation Bolo" and how the North Vietnamese Airforce would not engage fighters but would go after bomb laden F-105s. Robin Olds tricked the NVAF and by this deception nearly wiped out their entire MiG-21 force.

If you're defending your territory against any type of bombardment, the aircraft carrying the bombs are always the primary aerial target!!!

 

[pbehn]

Goerings fighters in the BoB outnumbered the RAFs by a considerable margin. The only strategy that could win was to shoot down bombers. Park ignored LW fighter sweeps, all his tactics were to stop bombers. It worked, the LW ran out of bombers so started putting bombs on fighters.